Targets you never can see

[Dave Campbell]

At some matches we have had targets placed  (1), directly behind a wall, within 3 feet, you have to shoot over the wall, shorter shooters can stand at the wall and not see the targets, I have seen boxes placed in front of the wall to elevate the shooter but cannot find anywhere in the rule book where this is allowed  and (2),  targets placed behind walls where you have to lean way out to see and shoot them.  We had a smaller shooter who simply could not lean far enough to see the target.  Looking at the rule book 1.1.6 would apply but I see no solution offered if it happens, 4.6.1 seems to apply , but solutions only deal with equipment failures,8.6.3 may have been used to give special dispensation , but it really does not cover the issue. and 10.2.10 can be used only for incapacity or injury.  So some shooters can see and shoot them and some cannot , Bad design  for sure but ,  Illegal Stage ?? 

Dave Campbell

 

I tried to post this at USPSA , it would not let me

[Sarge]

My philosophy is to imagine the smallest shooter you know shooting the stage. We have a few tiny shooters locally. One is a junior and one is a woman. We generally make things fit them locally. I even built a special 3' high wall section and named it after her.

 This is why ports should be very long from top to bottom. Make them as skinny as you like but make them very long.

around a wall would be tough because they would have to take penalties to shoot it.

If I'm not mistaken last time we discussed this it was learned that a box was allowed at nationals for a short shooter I believe. Rules don't really support it but the only option would be to toss the stage if not everybody can shoot all the targets. Lesser of two evils I guess.

[grapemeister]

I think you have a valid concern.  Sometimes stage designers, especially taller stage designers, don't take into account or consider shorter shooters that may be severely handicapped by a stage design.    It's common for a wood box to be furnished for juniors to stand on so targets can be engaged on the other side of a wall, but to require some adults and not others to stand on a box is ridiculous and should put the stage in violation of chapter 1.1.   But, you are really at the mercy of the range master as to whether a stage is equitable to all shooters.

I wonder if a Chapter 1.1 argument could or ever has been considered in arbitration?

Edit to add:   Shorter stage designers have also been guilty of stage designs that have handicapped taller shooter, and benefited shorter shooters.  So, it works both ways.

As to providing a box to stand on in order to engage targets, if it's an accommodation made for a shorter shooter and doesn't really affect the speed in which the position can be entered or exited, then I think that would pass the mustard as far as 1.1 is concerned, and the stage would be equitable for all shooters.

Edited October 12, 2016 by grapemeister

[JAFO]

It seems that this should fall under 2.1.6.

2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators.

It's on the match officials to ensure the stage is equitable for shorter shooters.  I think adding a box or step to allow people to gain height over the wall is completely acceptable, but if used, it should remain on the stage for everyone.

As far as the hard lean targets, if something is too extreme, it should be brought to the attention of the MD prior to the start of the match so target or fault line placement can be adjusted.

We have adjusted target height on drop-turners for shorter shooters when it was noticed that a junior would be shooting over the berm when the target first presented.

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, grapemeister said:

 It's common for a wood box to be furnished for juniors to stand on so targets can be engaged on the other side of a wall, but to require some adults and not others to stand on a box is ridiculous and should put the stage in violation of chapter 1.1.  

wait, what? someone is *required* to stand on a box? or allowed to? is everyone allowed to use the box?

sometimes it's annoying to be short. sometimes it's annoying to be tall. Often it's annoying to be old and have gradually failing eyesight. Bummer.

I do think there should be *some* legal way that every able-bodied person can reasonably shoot the targets. If someone shorter really can't lean far enough to actually see a target, that is a problem.

[grapemeister]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

is everyone allowed to use the box?

I don't know if it's the point you were making, but it did cause me to think about an easy fix for the stage.   If you have to put in a box to accommodate a shooter(s) then it would probably be a good idea to leave the box and adjust the stage where all shooters have to use the box.   In other words, easy way to make it equitable for all shooters.

Thanks

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

I don't know if it's the point you were making, but it did cause me to think about an easy fix for the stage.   If you have to put in a box to accommodate a shooter(s) then it would probably be a good idea to leave the box and adjust the stage where all shooters have to use the box.   In other words, easy way to make it equitable for all shooters.

Thanks

why not allow shooters the choice of whether to use a box or not? you know, freestyle?

[ChuckS]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

why not allow shooters the choice of whether to use a box or not? you know, freestyle?

The 2014 USPSA Nationals had a stage with an optional platform. You could use it on not. If you wanted it, the RO would place it (blue pallet) in front of the port.

Here is a guy not using it: (~6:18) https://youtu.be/dWNArf4ayU8?t=378

I am having trouble finding any video of someone using it.

[grapemeister]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

why not allow shooters the choice of whether to use a box or not? you know, freestyle?

But there may be no choice, depending on how tall the shooter is.   My point is that you can't leave options for some shooters and no options for others. 

[Dave Campbell]

All I.m trying to get to is a fair and equal opportunity for every shooter to shoot the targets, within the rules .

If using a box is acceptable tell me what rule to use, because it seems then you are changing the course of fire, I agree it makes sense to add the box, but it is not covered in the rules. As far as the lean to shoot targets, I've been told tough , its a shooting problem. Again staying within the rules, since some shooters never get the opportunity to shoot it  4.6.1  Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors .  if it does not is you only option to protest??

[motosapiens]

Just now, grapemeister said:

But there may be no choice, depending on how tall the shooter is.   My point is that you can't leave options for some shooters and no options for others. 

sure you can. i have no option but to bend over further for low ports. some short people don't have to bend over at all. I don't consider that a problem.

not being able to see a target *at all* however is a different story.

[grapemeister]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

not being able to see a target *at all* however is a different story.

That's what I'm taking about and I believe the OP is talking about.     Difficult, but doable is another thing and you wouldn't get any sympathy from me in that regard, even if it may not be so challenging for a taller or shorter shooter.  

[grapemeister]

49 minutes ago, Dave Campbell said:

All I.m trying to get to is a fair and equal opportunity for every shooter to shoot the targets, within the rules .

If using a box is acceptable tell me what rule to use, because it seems then you are changing the course of fire, I agree it makes sense to add the box, but it is not covered in the rules. As far as the lean to shoot targets, I've been told tough , its a shooting problem. Again staying within the rules, since some shooters never get the opportunity to shoot it  4.6.1  Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors .  if it does not is you only option to protest??

I'm not sure if there is a specific rule allowing it but I know it's been common place in USPSA and IPSC for many years to furnish a box or bench for juniors to use.  Some kind of elevated platform to use in a stage as an option for all shooters has been common for many years as well. 

 

[cas]

16 hours ago, grapemeister said:

Edit to add:   Shorter stage designers have also been guilty of stage designs that have handicapped taller shooter, and benefited shorter shooters.  So, it works both ways.

I'd hazard a guess that the ratio of when tall shooters are handicapped by the stage design/build compared to short shooter's is probably around 30-40 to 1. 

 

90% of every port I've ever had to shoot through has been lower than my line of sight. lol

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, Dave Campbell said:

If using a box is acceptable tell me what rule to use, because it seems then you are changing the course of fire,

That's why I think it should be brought up prior to the match.  Notify the MD prior to the match if you see a problem with a particular stage.  Then the box can be placed at the start of the match and left there for all shooters or, as Chuck mentioned, the RO's can place the box only for shooters that ask for it.  Cite 2.1.6 if they ask for a rule.

[Nik Habicht]

23 hours ago, Sarge said:

If I'm not mistaken last time we discussed this it was learned that a box was allowed at nationals for a short shooter I believe. Rules don't really support it but the only option would be to toss the stage if not everybody can shoot all the targets. Lesser of two evils I guess.

Check rule 1.1.6 -- paying special attention to the second sentence:

Quote

1.1.6 Difficulty – USPSA matches present varied degrees of difficulty. No shooting challenge or time limit may be appealed as being prohibitive. This does not apply to non-shooting challenges, which should reasonably allow for differences in competitor’s height and physical build.

If a competitor can't see a target because a wall or port is too tall, or a fault line is too tight given their height -- that's a problem that needs to be addressed in some way.  Boxes are legal for short statured shooters.  I've shot a couple of stages at an area match that had you placing your hands flat on hands painted on a wall -- shooters under 5'6" got a lower set of "palms" to put their hands on, than shooters who were taller.   

[PatJones]

It seems that this should fall under 2.1.6.

2.1.6 Obstacles – Natural or created obstacles in a course of fire should reasonably allow for variations in competitors’ height and physical build and should be constructed to provide reasonable safety for all competitors, Match Officials and spectators.

It's on the match officials to ensure the stage is equitable for shorter shooters.  I think adding a box or step to allow people to gain height over the wall is completely acceptable, but if used, it should remain on the stage for everyone.

At single stack nats this year, stage 7 required you shot over a wall at a low target. I'm 5' 10" and I had to stand on my tiptoes to shoot the target. There was a platform that the shooter could choose to use, but it took up most of the shooting area and made it difficult to move around and use the low ports on either side of the stage. When I saw the platform my first thought was "how is that the same stage I'm going to shoot?"

How is the addition of an elevated platform not a modification of course construction under 2.3? What rule would support the addition or removal of an elevated platform?

[BritinUSA]

Stage 6: BJ Norris

Edited October 13, 2016 by BritinUSA

[PatJones]

Yup that's the stage. The match book has it listed as stage 7.

[grapemeister]

Yep, lots of YouTube video of the same stage but with no box.   No choice for shorter shooters, but a choice for taller shooters.  I don't see how that makes for a legal stage.  I can see how somebody might argue that it was easier and less challenging for the shorter competitors to engage targets through the ports, but I think that would be a big stretch in justifying the stage.

I've stood next to BJ several times.  Although maybe shorter than the average shooter, he's not what I would call abnormally short or midget short, but of course I'm only 5'8"  early in the morning.

I'm not suggesting that we design stages for like 4 foot shooters,  but stage 7 at the Single Stack Nationals seems is a bit ridiculous.

[PatJones]

I feel the stage should be the same for everyone. I think elevated boxes slide thru because it's usually just juniors that get screwed.

[motosapiens]

A stage can't be the same for everyone. Some people are tall, some are short, some are flexible, some are fast, some are slow, some don't see very well at long distance. I don't see any need to dumb everything down to the least common denominator.

 

Note that us tall people are also disadvantaged by having to raise our guns a greater distance from holster to shooting position.

[BritinUSA]

Use a vertical narrow port and the challenge is the same for everyone.

[motosapiens]

On 10/14/2016 at 0:16 PM, BritinUSA said:

Use a vertical narrow port and the challenge is the same for everyone.

no it isn't. people with shorter arms have a distinct advantage on any scenario where you have to move slightly in order to see the targets as you are engaging them.

[Absocold]

Went to a match where on three of the stages there was a target that could only be engaged by leaning waaaaay to the right. Made it hard for the righties, lefties were hosed. One was so bad that, as a lefty, it was impossible for me to engage the target at all and I had to switch hands and engage it weak-handed.

 

That would be fine, except there were no similarly hard shots for the righties. I was miffed.