Rule 5.1.8

[theWacoKid]

Rule 5.1.8 states:

"A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a handgun during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6."

Anybody have any idea what the line is that constitutes 'significantly modifying'?  Rule 5.1.7 states any replacement handgun or sights need RM approval.  Are these the only modifications that are deemed significant?

[ktm300]

If I have to make a change that affects the way the gun performs, I just touch base with the RM.  Replacing a fiber in the front sight would not be a reason to talk to the RM for example.

If you change guns they normally want you to chrono again.  I would assume, the slide or barrel would trigger a trip back to chrono as well.  

[ickus]

And can we carry the back up or substitute Gun in the range bag while shooting a match ?

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, ickus said:

And can we carry the back up or substitute Gun in the range bag while shooting a match ?

sure. dunno why you'd want to, since it is more to carry. I leave my backup in the car. Only ever had to use it once.

[theWacoKid]

So, any other thoughts?

signicant <<<<<<<<<<< the line >>>>>> not significant

barrel, slide ........................ | .......................fiber insert

[George Jones]

IMO, anything which would be a repair or replacement of a broken part is not a modification, unless you are using something much different than the original.

As to barrel/slide, I would suggest you ask the RM first.  If it were me, I would likely approve the change but require re-chrono.

[High Lord Gomer]

I would consider "significantly modifying" to be anything that would have triggered rule 5.1.7.2.  So, if the change results in a competitive advantage, then I would consider it in violation of 5.1.8.

 

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.
5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

 

[theWacoKid]

2 hours ago, High Lord Gomer said:

I would consider "significantly modifying" to be anything that would have triggered rule 5.1.7.2.  So, if the change results in a competitive advantage, then I would consider it in violation of 5.1.8.

So you're of the opinion significant modification is only new gun or sights as mentioned in 5.1.7?  Everything else is good to go?

Edited August 30, 2016 by theWacoKid

[High Lord Gomer]

12 hours ago, theWacoKid said:

So you're of the opinion significant modification is only new gun or sights as mentioned in 5.1.7?  Everything else is good to go?

How did you manage to read that into what I said?

 

A new gun is not necessarily a competitive advantage while many things could be considered resulting in a competitive advantage.  At our last match my M&P 40 Pro decided to start releasing the mag almost every time I fired a shot.  So I consulted the RM and said, "Self...can you switch to my M&P 40 4.25" gun?"  He answered, "Yes, I can!" 

 

If it had been the other way around, though, he might have argued that the longer sight radius was a competitive advantage and not allowed.

 

Adding something like a frame weight or a mag well would definitely not be allowed.

[theWacoKid]

I just remember in another thread that a lot of RO's and RM's stated they are not disallowing a backup gun regardless of how different it is as long as it fits division rules. 

By mentioning gun and sights I feel like that's all the rule book has deemed significantly modifying. 

Having said that, if I add and remove my magwell or frame weight throughout the day you would consider that significant modification that requires RM approval. 

That would put two more items across the line. 

Gun, barrel, magwell, frame weight----> the line <----fiber insert 

[pkm]

Of course I can't find the e-mail but I had e-mailed Troy on it a while back and he said as long as the gun fits within the division rules it can be used as a backup gun. 

[theWacoKid]

Yes, my thought was competitive advantage as it pertains to gun switching is a why and when question, not a what question. 

To me, as long as it fits the division it's not a competitive advantage, but if you're looking to switch because of stage 5 upcoming, that is. 

[pkm]

Agreed, the only thing Troy had cited in his email would be an Open shooter switching to an iron sighted gun when say a hoser speed shoot was coming up or something of that nature.

[StealthyBlagga]

I imagine this is a subjective decision based on the totality of the circumstances, with the RM wanting to be satisfied the change is being requested for bona fide reasons, not just competitive advantage. 

[theWacoKid]

So we're right back to what I wanted the crux of this thread to be.  What is a "significant modification"?  I have my line, but I want to find what everyone's opinion is on where the line stands.  In other words, how gray is it?

For most open shooters and many limited shooters we have a lot of dinguses hanging off our guns.  They all come on and off pretty easily.  So throughout the day if I am adding, removing, swapping, or changing frame weights, magwells, slide rackers, wings, mag release buttons, thumb rests, trigger inserts, extractor springs/caps, recoil springs, barrels, etc., which are significant, if any?  Where is your line drawn?

Edited August 30, 2016 by theWacoKid

[High Lord Gomer]

Appendix D5 (among other things) contains:

Cuts that are designed to specifically or significantly lighten the slide, such as holes, or slots, are ruled as competitive advantage and prohibited.

That was the closest thing I could find that defined what was a competitive advantage.  Based on that, I stand by my assertion that frame weights and magwells would be considered a significant modification that could result in a competitive advantage.

Well, 5.1.7 also has:

Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match.

...implying that changing the type of sights would also be a significant change.

But...this is all strictly my opinion and worth exactly what I have been paid for it. 

[theWacoKid]

Appendix D5 is discussing single stack rules, so yes cutting slide is a competitive advantage in single stack, but there's no one stopping you from running a cut up slide and bumping to open.  Now, once in open (or limited) slide cuts are no longer any competitive advantage because all competitors have that option.  Just like all open competitors have the option of running a magwell or frame weight which to me means neither is any competitive advantage.

On that note, I still don't feel a "significant change" is defined by "competitive advantage".  By the wording of rule 5.1.7 I only read that sights are specifically identified as a significant change.  

Personally, I would only lump sights and caliber change as a significant change that needed RM approval.  A barrel swap of the same caliber I'm on the fence on, because I think it should require a trip to the chrono even though the specs of the gun aren't changed.  Slides and all other doo-dads I don't think fall under significant as long as the change doesn't force the gun into a different division.  Anyone else feel this way?

[StealthyBlagga]

I imagine this is a subjective decision based on the totality of the circumstances, with the RM wanting to be satisfied the change is being requested for bona fide reasons, not just competitive advantage. 

[Gary Stevens]

Often words are used in rules that over time, the emphasis on those words changes.

If the substitute gun meets the division requirements, I'm having a hard time thinking of something that would provide a competitive advantage.

You might, for example, add a mag well to a Production gun and receive an advantage. You would also remove your gun from Production and into Open.

I suspect that many of these anomalies will be corrected when a new rule book is printed.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[JAFO]

I would consider adding or removing things (like frame weights and magwells) to be significant modifications.  Non-significant mods would be replacing things (like a broken part or fiber optic).  If you have a good reason to remove something, like say the magwell cracked and now you have a sharp edge that you could cut yourself on, then I wouldn't have a problem with you removing it.  If you are removing weights and magwells so you can have a lighter gun for one stage, then slapping it all back on for another stage, I would consider that modifying for competitive advantage.

Switching to a backup gun that may or may not have those items is different.  If your original gun is unserviceable and your backup meets Division requirements, go ahead and swap.

[theWacoKid]

JAFO,

Awesome, thank you. So is there a line for you of something not significant that I could remove/replace throughout the day?  Are all parts off limits in your mind unless it failed or broke?

[JAFO]

Someone may think of something to change my mind, but at the moment, I'd consider adding or removing any parts to be significant.  Replacing, no.  But just because I consider adding or removing things to the gun to be significant modification, that doesn't mean that I would necessarily deny it if I were the RM.

Edited August 30, 2016 by JAFO

[Gary Stevens]

I am thinking that a shooter will configure their primary gun in the way that, in their minds, gives them the best performance.

i honestly think that adding parts to the primary gun is not a major concern.

[Southpaw]

I think the question is, why are you modifying, adding, or removing parts from your gun during the match?  It sounds like you're talking about making changes to your gun not because of a broken part, but just because you want to?  In which case I agree with JAFO, replacing broken parts, no big deal, but changing your gun when it's still functioning properly - I can't think of any modification that should be allowed without RM approval.  If there's nothing wrong with your gun, why would you want to modify it if not to gain some advantage on a particular stage?  I think that's the whole point of the rule, to prevent people from modifying their gun from one stage to the next to gain some advantage by doing so.  Which is why the punishment is a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Similar to a backup gun; you can't switch to it in the middle of the match just because you want to.  Your primary gun has to first become unserviceable or unsafe.

[JAFO]

18 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

I am thinking that a shooter will configure their primary gun in the way that, in their minds, gives them the best performance.

i honestly think that adding parts to the primary gun is not a major concern.

Gary,

I'm thinking along the lines of things like adding a thumb rest for a table start stage and removing it after, or removing a frame weight and/or magwell for a standards stage with wide transitions.  Basically, stage-by-stage modifications.