Accuracy - What would you do?

[TacticalReload]

Okay... I took my brand new M&P9 Performance Center ported CORE 4.25" to the range today with a variety of ammo. I had my fingers crossed after reading so much about the accuracy issues with the M&P 9mm guns. Looks like I lost the lottery.

Accuracy was not good at all. At first I was wondering if my RMR's dot was walking or something so I used the cowitnessed sights and got the same results (keep in mind that I previously had this RMR mounted on a Glock 19 MOS with standard-type accuracy results). There were shots that I swear broke right on target that ended up a good 6+ inches off at 10 yards. I tried ammo ranging from bullet weights of 90gr all the way up to 147gr at various PF, both plated and jacketed; and I saw accuracy that ranged from marginally poor to downright awful. In an attempt to compare the results, I shot 3 rounds from my Glock 34 at 7 yards and 6 rounds from the M&P at the same range with the same ammo and got the following (keep in mind that this is only SEVEN yards):

Honestly, that spread for the M&P wasn't all that bad when compared to some others I was getting, but I was running out of ammo so I just snapped the photo and called it a day. Keep in mind here that the Glock has iron sights and the M&P is wearing a dot... it makes it painfully obvious during slowfire when I throw a shot so I definitely can call flyers. I didn't even bother to run this down to 20 yards (max distance at the range I used) because it would look like 00 buck from a breacher barrel. I am concerned that I won't even be keeping some of them on the paper at distances of 25 yards or more.

If I were to describe what the "groups" were like, I'd say that about 30-50% of them go where they should with the rest floating anywhere up, down, left, or right. I thought I would see a pattern (vertical stringing, shooting high right, etc.), but then the next group had holes spread out all over the place. In the picture above, there were no flyers to the right; but there could be a string of 10 shots where there were 5 or 6 to the right and none to the left. There were strings of 5 or 6 shots where not a single one was within an inch and a half of center -- and remember we are talking about distances of only 7 to 10 yards here.

The gun is totally stock including the RSA and trigger. The barrel appears to lock up fine when in battery. One thing that I will say that I noticed is that, during dry fire, once the striker drops I notice the slide seems to jump forward a tiny bit. If I slam the slide forward and give it an extra shove just for good measure, it doesn't seem to move much at all... but if I just casually cycle the slide to reset the trigger during dry fire, I notice that little movement. Despite this, it appears that the barrel is locked up regardless. Is this normal? Can anyone check their gun to see if it does this as well? BTW, I never "rode" the slide home during chambering of the first round.

So anyway... what would you do at this point? At the very least, I picked up two boxes of factory ammo (115 and 147gr) that I'm going to run through the gun one more time at the range to see if by some miracle, a change of ammo / time / scenery magically improves things. However, I have no reason to believe that it will.

Would you call S&W and see what they say? I figure most likely they will have me send it back and will then likely give me some BS line about "acceptable combat accuracy" and return it to me as is. Plus I wonder how long they would have my gun. (BTW, the fired case with the gun says it was made May '15 so I think it's got the newest barrel update.)

The alternative is that I just plunk down the $$ for an Apex SDI and see what happens. I was thinking of buying one anyway so I could give CO a try, but I don't really want to have a factory ported barrel sitting around that I know I can never use in the gun if I have any hopes of hitting what I'm aiming at. (Plus, what was the point of buying the ported model anyway, then?)

Combine this M&P experience with the fact that I also tried 6 different loads through my Ruger MKIII in an attempt to find one that would at least get through a 50 round box without issues but couldn't find one that works... and well, it was a rough day at the range today. (Has anyone noticed that .22 ammo quality seems to be going downhill lately when you can even find the stuff at all?)

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'd go back over the mounting screws on the RMR and make sure

everything is TIGHT.

I'd back out to 20 or 25 yards, since you have a dot.

Get a real solid bench and a small dot target (3-4") of solid

dark bullseye.

Then, I'd fire a 12 - 15 shot group.

If it still sucks, I'd take the RMR off and try the above with iron sights.

Good luck with it.

[BrianKr]

Yeah, I was disappointed with mine as well. Identical set-up.

Call S&W. They want you to be satisfied. They won't poop on you. I've been very happy with them. Just don't talk to a woman and think that's the end all. I keep dialing until I get one of the guys who also shoots. You have one of their high end guns and they know what we use them for... At least the guys do. The ladies, not so much. For them I think it's just a job and a day that they need to get through.

Well, I DID send mine back to S&W and they changed the barrel for me. But I also had to buy an unported barrel (Wilson) to get into the CO division and really didn't test the new barrel very much. The Wilson was slightly better. I found that heavier bullets tightened the groups a bunch.

My plan is to buy an Apex and have my gunsmith install it. I see no reason that the Apex couldn't be sent to Magnaport and have it ported if you want that. I'd talk to Magnaport though and see what else they need to get it right. When I get done with it I'll have 2 spare barrels laying in the parts bin.

Edited March 29, 2016 by BrianKr

[TacticalReload]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. I had to call them two other times for other guns... once when a PC revolver I received had a disastrously badly fitted wooden grip and once when there was a major cosmetic issue with the finish on another PC revolver. The latter time, the guy had me send it back no questions asked and replaced the frame for free. The former time, however, the guy gave me the third degree and required two separate sets of photos before was willing to grudgingly address the issue. Both times we were talking about $1100+ guns.

When it comes to accuracy issues, especially with one as widely publicized (and seemingly sporadic) as the ones with the M&P9, it's easy enough for it to be dismissed as operator error. Everyone thinks they can shoot accurately enough to know the difference between a gun problem and a shooter problem... despite the fact that not everyone really can. Hopefully I can convince the customer service rep that I can tell the difference. It's why I posted this question here instead of on some of the other forums... people here are much more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you claim the gun isn't up to snuff instead of immediate dismissing it as "practice more and your problem will go away". On a thread on the S&W forum, when Randy Lee posted up in response to people talking about the Apex barrel, one person questioned if his stated shot size (of his very inaccurate gun with stock factory barrel) was a typo and another person mentioned that he should donate to the forum since he was getting free advertising of his products. Internet commandos can be such ball-busters.

Edited March 29, 2016 by TacticalReload

[horseman]

If you haven't changed the extractor on your Ruger, do so. Best 10 bucks you will spend. VQ is what I use.

[TacticalReload]

It has the VQ drop in trigger kit, but IIRC it's running the stock extractor. The last shot I took actually is lodged in the chamber and I can't get it out. I'll have to bang it out with a squib rod but I have been so disgusted with my day of shooting that I simply haven't even touched the range bag since I got home. I should find a local match this weekend to shoot... I think with all this bad luck that I have banked up enough good-will that something is bound to go my way soon!

I did learn that Aguila's waxy coating means that once I load over 6 rounds into my mag that it feeds so sluggishly (due to friction between the bullets and inside of the mag body) that the action cycles before a new round is pushed up far enough to be stripped from the mag. Learn something new everyday. Then I learned that for some reason CCI literally won't chamber in my gun without substantial force -- not sure if it's out of spec or whatever, but it won't consistently chamber (I'm not just talking FTF, I mean it literally don't chamber). Some Elay Match stuff I have has this problem where the first round stripped off the mag when firing gets hung up and the bolt literally bends the case in half. Some PMC ammo I tried created a bizarre situation where I thought it ruptured a case or that I had a blocked barrel -- spitting hot gas / powder back at my face! Weirdly, the best feeding, firing, extracting ammo that I used was the el cheapo Federal bulk box "value pack"... but now I shot all of that stuff and can't find more.

I need to detail strip this thing, clean it like there's no tomorrow, and check for burrs. There is something wrong with this gun. Until recently, I hadn't shot it for years. I don't remember having these issues back then. Of course, ammo was cheaper and more plentiful so who knows.

[3djedi]

https://youtu.be/09yba1uYuUk

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[3djedi]

https://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/accuracy-is-coming-apex-announces-9mm-barrels-for-smith-wesson-mp-pistols/ Edited March 31, 2016 by 3djedi

[PacMan]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. ..

I hate to say this, but you're going to find the same poor result. I gave up on trying to improve the accuracy of my 2 M&P Pros. From Storm Lake to Wilson Combat, and the latest APEX sdi barrels. Maybe a gunsmith fit would be better but I already have CZs and Glocks that can outshoot these M&Ps without any custom work. The Apex sdi improved grouping at 25 yds, but not significant enough over the factory barrel for me to keep so I got rid of it.

[BrianKr]

I'm going to be shooting a CZ soon. I've heard good things about them.

Looks like I might need to develop more products to get more spend money.

[TacticalReload]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. ..

I hate to say this, but you're going to find the same poor result. I gave up on trying to improve the accuracy of my 2 M&P Pros. From Storm Lake to Wilson Combat, and the latest APEX sdi barrels. Maybe a gunsmith fit would be better but I already have CZs and Glocks that can outshoot these M&Ps without any custom work. The Apex sdi improved grouping at 25 yds, but not significant enough over the factory barrel for me to keep so I got rid of it.

Ugh... I just ordered an Apex SDI. You are the first one I've heard who has said that there is disappointing accuracy with it. How bad was it with stock and how bad with each of the barrels (ballpark group size at 25 yd)?

[Randy Lee]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. ..

I hate to say this, but you're going to find the same poor result. I gave up on trying to improve the accuracy of my 2 M&P Pros. From Storm Lake to Wilson Combat, and the latest APEX sdi barrels. Maybe a gunsmith fit would be better but I already have CZs and Glocks that can outshoot these M&Ps without any custom work. The Apex sdi improved grouping at 25 yds, but not significant enough over the factory barrel for me to keep so I got rid of it.

Ugh... I just ordered an Apex SDI. You are the first one I've heard who has said that there is disappointing accuracy with it. How bad was it with stock and how bad with each of the barrels (ballpark group size at 25 yd)?

Just out of curiosity, what ammo will you be running?

The reason I ask is that it seems that some believe that a barrel will be the Holy Grail that will guarantee the gun will shoot sub- minute of Quark, regardless of the ammo, or who holds the gun.

Clearly this is not the case. What I can tell you is that with factory Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 147 gr jhps, Winchester WinClean 124 gr and a variety of handloads, our SDI typically shoots 1" or better out of a Ransom at 25 yards. That is why we state that the SDI usually holds 1.5" at 25 yards off of a rest (with good ammo and shooter)

The last SDI I tested for function was in a MA compliant 4.25" gun with a 12 lb trigger pull. At 10 yards (remember, I was testing for function and not accuracy) it put the first 3 shots of 124 gr Federal Hydra-Shok through the same hole that measured bullet diameter. This was done off hand with Iron sights.

When you get the barrel, the most critical aspect is how the barrel locks up vertically on the locking block. Some guns out there have atrocious vertical slide to frame clearance. Whichever barrel you use- SDI or Gunsmith Fit, the barrel should be rock solid at both the front end of the slide and at the chamber end, even as you pull the slide back .100".

And of course, if you have any problems fitting the barrel, we are just a phonecall away.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Flexmoney
to fix quotes

[bthoefer]

I'd recommend trying some 124 grain loads. My M&Ps all showed a dramatic preference for 124 grain ammo.

[TacticalReload]

Just out of curiosity, what ammo will you be running?

The reason I ask is that it seems that some believe that a barrel will be the Holy Grail that will guarantee the gun will shoot sub- minute of Quark, regardless of the ammo, or who holds the gun.

Clearly this is not the case. What I can tell you is that with factory Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 147 gr jhps, Winchester WinClean 124 gr and a variety of handloads, our SDI typically shoots 1" or better out of a Ransom at 25 yards. That is why we state that the SDI usually holds 1.5" at 25 yards off of a rest (with good ammo and shooter)

The last SDI I tested for function was in a MA compliant 4.25" gun with a 12 lb trigger pull. At 10 yards (remember, I was testing for function and not accuracy) it put the first 3 shots of 124 gr Federal Hydra-Shok through the same hole that measured bullet diameter. This was done off hand with Iron sights.

When you get the barrel, the most critical aspect is how the barrel locks up vertically on the locking block. Some guns out there have atrocious vertical slide to frame clearance. Whichever barrel you use- SDI or Gunsmith Fit, the barrel should be rock solid at both the front end of the slide and at the chamber end, even as you pull the slide back .100".

And of course, if you have any problems fitting the barrel, we are just a phonecall away.

Thanks, Randy. I have my fingers crossed so hard that it hurts.

I have no problems with varying the load to find one that works. 115, 124, 147 grain. I'd prefer not to shoot factory loads for the sake of cost, of course; but I have been reloading for over 15 years and am pretty sure that I can find something that works if the gun is capable.

I'm not looking for a sub 1" bullseye gun. Honestly, I'd settle for 3" at 25 yards at this point based on the fact that I could not get it to consistently group that well at SEVEN YARDS as is. I had read all the problems that people were having with these guns, but I took a chance. I sold my Glock 19 MOS (because it doesn't fit my hand very well) at a loss to plunk down money on this pistol hoping that I wouldn't lose the accuracy lottery. Looks like I did. I hate the idea of having to turn around and drop $200 into a pistol just to get it run acceptably, but if that's what it takes and it runs as well as claimed then I'm okay with it. I would be ecstatic with a 1.5" group out of a ransom rest. I'd be satisfied with a 2.5" group. I don't have a ransom rest, but I know what I typically can and can't do off sandbags so anything as comparable with a factory Glock would be acceptable.

Before I bought the gun, I tried to feel around to see how it locked up. When it battery, it seems to be reasonably solid. Of course the slide to frame fit rattles, but the barrel seemed okay. One thing I notice during dryfire is that it seems like the slide jumps forward a hair when the striker releases -- that doesn't make me feel so confident, but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Randy, one thing... I read that apparently the place / method of removing material from the muzzle end of the barrel when fitting has changed since the first ones came out. Is the material removed from 10 and 2 o'clock or is it removed from somewhere else (12 o'clock, etc.)?

And what happens if, after properly fitting the barrel, the gun still shoots poorly? Let's hope that doesn't happen, but this gun is quickly turning me into a glass-half-empty type of guy.

Edited March 31, 2016 by TacticalReload

[Randy Lee]

Just out of curiosity, what ammo will you be running?

The reason I ask is that it seems that some believe that a barrel will be the Holy Grail that will guarantee the gun will shoot sub- minute of Quark, regardless of the ammo, or who holds the gun.

Clearly this is not the case. What I can tell you is that with factory Fiocchi 115 jhps, PRVI 147 gr jhps, Winchester WinClean 124 gr and a variety of handloads, our SDI typically shoots 1" or better out of a Ransom at 25 yards. That is why we state that the SDI usually holds 1.5" at 25 yards off of a rest (with good ammo and shooter)

The last SDI I tested for function was in a MA compliant 4.25" gun with a 12 lb trigger pull. At 10 yards (remember, I was testing for function and not accuracy) it put the first 3 shots of 124 gr Federal Hydra-Shok through the same hole that measured bullet diameter. This was done off hand with Iron sights.

When you get the barrel, the most critical aspect is how the barrel locks up vertically on the locking block. Some guns out there have atrocious vertical slide to frame clearance. Whichever barrel you use- SDI or Gunsmith Fit, the barrel should be rock solid at both the front end of the slide and at the chamber end, even as you pull the slide back .100".

And of course, if you have any problems fitting the barrel, we are just a phonecall away.

Thanks, Randy. I have my fingers crossed so hard that it hurts.

I have no problems with varying the load to find one that works. 115, 124, 147 grain. I'd prefer not to shoot factory loads for the sake of cost, of course; but I have been reloading for over 15 years and am pretty sure that I can find something that works if the gun is capable.

I'm not looking for a sub 1" bullseye gun. Honestly, I'd settle for 3" at 25 yards at this point based on the fact that I could not get it to consistently group that well at SEVEN YARDS as is. I had read all the problems that people were having with these guns, but I took a chance. I sold my Glock 19 MOS (because it doesn't fit my hand very well) at a loss to plunk down money on this pistol hoping that I wouldn't lose the accuracy lottery. Looks like I did. I hate the idea of having to turn around and drop $200 into a pistol just to get it run acceptably, but if that's what it takes and it runs as well as claimed then I'm okay with it. I would be ecstatic with a 1.5" group out of a ransom rest. I'd be satisfied with a 2.5" group. I don't have a ransom rest, but I know what I typically can and can't do off sandbags so anything as comparable with a factory Glock would be acceptable.

Before I bought the gun, I tried to feel around to see how it locked up. When it battery, it seems to be reasonably solid. Of course the slide to frame fit rattles, but the barrel seemed okay. One thing I notice during dryfire is that it seems like the slide jumps forward a hair when the striker releases -- that doesn't make me feel so confident, but I'm not sure if that means anything.

Randy, one thing... I read that apparently the place / method of removing material from the muzzle end of the barrel when fitting has changed since the first ones came out. Is the material removed from 10 and 2 o'clock or is it removed from somewhere else (12 o'clock, etc.)?

And what happens if, after properly fitting the barrel, the gun still shoots poorly? Let's hope that doesn't happen, but this gun is quickly turning me into a glass-half-empty type of guy.

I'm pretty sure that if you pull back on the slide ever so slightly with the factory barrel, there will be discernible play at the muzzle end as well as the chamber end. You can watch the barrel start to drop out of battery on some guns as soon as the slide is retracted .005".

You might need to remove material off of the the bell of the muzzle end around the 12:00 position if the barrel will not enter the slide. Hopefully yours will slide in without a problem.

My purpose in designing the barrel was to ensure that the gun is mechanically capable of shooting groups 1" or better out of the Ransom. That way you never have to wonder if it is the gun or the operator. I have found that shooting a gun that groups equal to or worse than my current ability (say 4" at 25 yards off hand) from sand bags will always make go into a stage with a greater deal of uncertainty and second guessing. I tend to push the speed a bit more when I am confident in the gun's ability to hit the mark on the target where I see the front sight lift out of the rear sight notch.

[TacticalReload]

The barrel definitely drops out of battery very quickly.

I agree with what you said about the accuracy. As a shooter that usually ends a stage with slower times but better accuracy, feeling confident that dropped points are my fault and not the pistol is critical for my style of shooting. Plus I participate in GSSF indoor style matches that allow non-Glocks to enter... which is all about accurate slowfire. As someone who has never really felt 100% about the fit of Glocks to my hand or the grip angle, going to the M&P would be an ergonomic godsend. Now if the dang thing would just throw bullets where I pointed it, we'd be all good.

No pressure, Randy... but I'm counting on you and your product to save the day! If the SDI barrel works for me, I'll probably still send the gun off to S&W to see what they could (or would be willing to) do with the ported barrel option. However, I would feel a lot more comfortable with selling off a Glock or two and replacing it with more M&Ps with their own SDIs installed.

That actually brings up a good point. Has anyone successfully sent a pistol to S&W and received a "better" gun? If so, what did they do beside simply replace the barrel? Was there any fitting done that affected the slide dimensions or slide-to-frame fit that would affect the gun in a way that would mess up the fit of a previously installed SDI barrel? If that's the case, I'd be better off sending it to S&W first and fitting the Apex barrel after it came back.

Edited March 31, 2016 by TacticalReload

[Randy Lee]

If I were in your place, I would send the gun in first. That way, if they improve the accuracy by replacing your barrel or slide, they you may decide to simple return your SDI barrel from wherever you purchased it and get a refund. No sense in paying for a barrel if the factory can guarantee your gun will shoot better groups.

If you decide that you want to keep the SDI, then you won't have to worry about having a sloppy fit if the factory does decide your slde needed replacement.

[PacMan]

Thanks Jack and Brian. I already checked the RMR... it's locked down well. The fact that I tried shooting a group with the BUIS and ended up with no difference in size also tells me that it's not the dot. The plan is to take it back to the range with the two factory boxes I bought (Remington 115gr and Winchester 147gr) along with a box of HST JHP that I have plus some of my handloads that I have found to be the most accurate in my Glock 34. I'm going to clean, lube, and fire it from a bench at 20 yards onto a shoot-n-see sight-in target and see what happens. Then I'll do the same with my Glock 34 just for comparison. If (when) I'm disappointed with the results, I'll phone up S&W and give it a shot. ..

I hate to say this, but you're going to find the same poor result. I gave up on trying to improve the accuracy of my 2 M&P Pros. From Storm Lake to Wilson Combat, and the latest APEX sdi barrels. Maybe a gunsmith fit would be better but I already have CZs and Glocks that can outshoot these M&Ps without any custom work. The Apex sdi improved grouping at 25 yds, but not significant enough over the factory barrel for me to keep so I got rid of it.

Ugh... I just ordered an Apex SDI. You are the first one I've heard who has said that there is disappointing accuracy with it. How bad was it with stock and how bad with each of the barrels (ballpark group size at 25 yd)?

Stock M&P was 4-5" off sandbag at 25 yds. Ammo were 125 gr Precision Delta JHP, 125 gr Hornady HAP, and 124 gr Hornady XTP, all were on top of 4.6-4.8 gr of Win 231 or Tightgroup. Primer is Fed SP or SPM. Plus a sampling of new 125 and 115 gr XTP from Freedomunitions. I didn't go cheap on the bullets because this is my match gun/load.

Stormlake and Wilson results were the same as factory barrel, within 0.5" so for all intended purpose, same accuracy.

Apex SDI were 3"- 4". The initial group with the 125 gr HAP was all 4 in one hole + 1 outside within 1.5" so I was extremely happy...but that didn't last long, 2nd and 3rd opened up. It wasn't that I didn't appreciate the result (anything is better than 5" at 25 yds) but the gun started to have failed to feed and failed to fire about 10% of the time. This is with factory recoil spring assembly and factory striker spring. Trigger is Apex straight blade FS that has been through 4-5k rds in the last year without a single hiccup. Put the old barrel back in and problems went away so most likely that I've closed up the tolerance window so much with this barrel that caused the FTFs to occur. Either that or 'operator errors/failures'

Edited April 2, 2016 by PacMan

[rhowell309]

I've had failure to feed issues with my SF barrel also. I'm not sure how much of it is my fault. This is with my reloads and factory 115 blazer brass. I feel I have fit the barrel correctly. While mine was purchased from Apex directly in February, I know it doesn't have the most recent changes. I have several M&Ps both with stock and aftermarket barrels. Stock they vary, but I've only had 2 that grouped as bad as the OP's gun.

I'm going to send my barrel back to have Randy and crew take a look at it. I want to do some further testing next week first. I have a ransom rest in order that should be in Monday. I want to take all of the variables out of comparing the stock barrel, this one now, and after any changes by Randy (if any). I have enough faith in Apex that it will be better than stock. I'm looking forward to testing some of the other M&Ps and barrels as well. I love the way the lockup is with the Apex barrel and believe it will make a difference.

If I get the bugs worked out and it performs as expected, I'll be ordering a couple more.

Edited April 2, 2016 by rhowell309

[TacticalReload]

You guys are making it very difficult for me to figure out what I want to do. Honestly, I *really* want to like the M&P platform... the ergos fit my hand so much better than the Glock and the grip angle is so much more natural. I don't even mind the factory trigger pull all that much, considering these are plastic striker guns anyway. With a high grip, I've had a couple of problems with the XD grip safety. Thumbs forward keeps the slides from locking back on SIGs and HKs for me. I could never get into any Ruger autos. And I don't have the money for a 2011. I guess I could give CZ a try, but I'm thinking if the M&P doesn't work out, I might just suck it up and stick with Glock. The only thing that would be worse than losing a bunch of money on an inaccurate M&P is to lose that money and then spend another $200 on a barrel that doesn't work out either. Once I fit it to the gun, I'm kinda stuck with it, win or lose -- but I don't know what will happen until... well, until it happens.

[PacMan]

You guys are making it very difficult for me to figure out what I want to do. Honestly, I *really* want to like the M&P platform... the ergos fit my hand so much better than the Glock and the grip angle is so much more natural. I don't even mind the factory trigger pull all that much, considering these are plastic striker guns anyway. With a high grip, I've had a couple of problems with the XD grip safety. Thumbs forward keeps the slides from locking back on SIGs and HKs for me. I could never get into any Ruger autos. And I don't have the money for a 2011. I guess I could give CZ a try, but I'm thinking if the M&P doesn't work out, I might just suck it up and stick with Glock. The only thing that would be worse than losing a bunch of money on an inaccurate M&P is to lose that money and then spend another $200 on a barrel that doesn't work out either. Once I fit it to the gun, I'm kinda stuck with it, win or lose -- but I don't know what will happen until... well, until it happens.

Exactly why I put my G17 in the safe when the M&P Pro came out. My CZ TS is a good fit but oh so heavy. For 3 gunning, the M&P is good enough with Apex trigger and Dawson Precision sights so I will continue to use it but no more searching for the holy grail when it isn't there.

[TacticalReload]

Makes me wonder why it's so difficult to design a good handgun... seems like a little of column A, a little of column B... and you have something that works for people better than most of what's out there.

[munsonbw]

Makes me wonder why it's so difficult to design a good handgun... seems like a little of column A, a little of column B... and you have something that works for people better than most of what's out there.

I don't mean to derail your thread, but it is strange to me that your statement above is not more truth than theory. I would have to imagine Glock could sell even more pistols if they changed the grip angle and removed the 2x4 from the grip designer's hands. Keep the original design and just offer a 2.0 version or something. I know I would try one if they did.

[TacticalReload]

No worries about "derailing" the thread. I hear you... but i don't think Glock would ever make those types of changes. They have two thirds of the LE market, a growing MIL market, and every gangbanger wanna be and mall ninja wants one. They already have version 2.0 and 3.0 and 4.0 and some in between (when it comes to generations) and the blocky grip and big hump on the backstrap are just too identifiable as Glock traits to ever think they would eliminate them. Although something like an M&P frame with an APEX trigger and Glock accuracy (or better) with a set of real sights, and an honest-to-goodness grippy textured gripframe... and I think you'd have a quite a winner on your hands.

[ddc]

Wow... in this and other threads... seeing a lot of varying experiences with M&P accuracy... mine has been positive but so many have not... I wonder if I just got lucky...