Accuracy - What would you do?

[rhowell309]

Molon, I'm curious on how long it took them to install the barrel and return your gun.

I'm more interested in how long it took to put together that post complete with precisely measured and documented photos! Kudos... makes my posts look like they were slapped together half-assed (which they were).

I agree. A very nice post.

[Molon]

Molon, I'm curious on how long it took them to install the barrel and return your gun.

IIRC it was approximately seven weeks.

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[Molon]

Molon, I'm curious on how long it took them to install the barrel and return your gun.

I'm more interested in how long it took to put together that post complete with precisely measured and documented photos! Kudos... makes my posts look like they were slapped together half-assed (which they were).

I agree. A very nice post.

Thanks. Here are a few more pics of the barrel.

.....

[rhowell309]

Molon, I'm curious on how long it took them to install the barrel and return your gun.

IIRC it was approximately seven weeks.

...

Thanks! I sent mine in for them to figure out what was wrong with it. Accuracy was there, but there was function issues. Mine was the older version barrel. I've since purchased another, near identical gun now fitted with the newer version barrel and it works perfectly.

[rhowell309]

Great photography. Obviously not taken with your phone!

[B585]

Molon,

You have got to be the same Molon from AR15.com and others. Nobody provides this meticulous of testing and data than you. Thank you for this post and your countless other threads on the other forums. As a distance shooter first, I have learned more from you than other person about testing, groups, data collection, and analyzing data. For anyone not familiar with this guy, when posts, play close attention because you will get a lot out of it. Glad to see you on this forum also.

Edited May 4, 2016 by B585

[watlow]

I think I "won the lottery" I run my M&P hard and dirty with 147s and can pick a nickel at 100yd if I slow down. But a lot of good info from everyone.

[BrianKr]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

[B585]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

Thanks. That is good to know. I ordered one and it is supposed to be here on Friday. I am looking forward to trying it out.

Edited May 4, 2016 by B585

[TacticalReload]

Molon, I'm curious on how long it took them to install the barrel and return your gun.

IIRC it was approximately seven weeks.

...

Thanks! I sent mine in for them to figure out what was wrong with it. Accuracy was there, but there was function issues. Mine was the older version barrel. I've since purchased another, near identical gun now fitted with the newer version barrel and it works perfectly.

Looking at the pics, this appears to be one of the older versions of the barrel as well.

One thing that is striking from the pics is how sloppy the factory barrel is cut. The opening to the chamber isn't even round. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm thinking it's not supposed to look like that.

[BrianKr]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

Thanks. That is good to know. I ordered one and it is supposed to be here on Friday. I am looking forward to trying it out.

Let me know how you like.

It took me a bit of playing with it to get it right (typical of all belt gear IMO), but I have a cant that works for me and I'm right above the belt, so I'm good to go. Once it's locked in it's not going to move.

[Flexmoney]

Also, I wonder if the Apex barrel will solve the tear drop firing pin marks I always see on the spent primers.

Unfortunately, the answer is no. The teardrop design is a design feature of the M&P. The teardrop is cut into the breech face of the slide and prevents primer smear as the barrel drops. If you've ever cleaned the striker channel out of a Glock and found impacted brass and silver colored debris you'll know what I am referring to. The cut in the breech face greatly reduces this phenomenon, especially for guns where the barrel tends to drop early.

So, that is an impression (back-flow pressure), rather than a firing pin smear it would seem?

[Flexmoney]

BTW, has anyone else found that the store at Apex to be 300 baud slow to exchange data? It took me over 20 minutes to order the barrel. I should have just ordered it from Brownells (after the fact). But I like to support the manufacturer directly when I can. I manufacture things myself and I appreciate the support from folks who order direct rather than from someone who buys at wholesale. So I tolerated the extremely slow to respond Apex store. No exaggeration, 20 minutes. I thought i was back to voice modem.

When 300 baud was the bomb -> http://www.salon.com/2002/05/31/back_in_the_day/

[Molon]

05/07/16

Here's a pic of another 10-shot group fired off the the bench at a distance of 25 yards. This group was fired using one of my standard hand-loads (not tuned for any particular barrel) that is seated with the Federal 124 grain HST bullet. The group has an extreme spread of 1.08".

...

[TacticalReload]

Where do you get HST bullets? Are they pulled? And are they more accurate than XTP's?

While doing some dry-firing today I noticed that when the striker is released, frequently there is horizontal movement of the dot. This probably explains why I'm getting horizontal spread, even with the Apex barrel. It appears that, while the Apex barrel has tightened up the barrel-to-slide fit as well as the vertical movement of the slide on the frame, there is still considerable movement side-to-side between the slide and frame. The inertia of the striker seems to be enough to upset the slide. I'm not sure how to deal with that except to try to spread the front rails / locking block a little bit. I took a measurement and there is a full hundredth of an inch difference between this locking block rails' outside width and one of the others that I have. I could order a spare one to play with, but I'm afraid that it might make the fit with the Apex barrel loose if it's not as tall.

To give you an idea of the amount of play, if I wiggle the slide side to side, the muzzle end will actually touch both sides of the inside of the dust cover area of the frame. The more I play with this gun, the more I wonder if design and production was secretly outsourced to Kel-Tec. Anyone have any ideas on the easiest way to open up the rails a tiny bit (without peening them)? I need to check the movement of the rear of the slide to make sure the rear rails aren't allowing a whole lot of sideways play as well... if so, there isn't much I can do about that one because if I make the front rails wider but the rears are still an issue then the slide will just pivot sideways around the front rails. I feel like if I can cut down on this movement, I can probably shrink the groups with the Apex even further (and maybe even improve on the terrible OEM barrel a little as well).

[want2race]

I was thankful to have the Apex barrel this weekend. Shot an IDPA state match with many head shots and hard cover shots. Even the 25 yard standards stage was shot with confidence. I was telling anyone that would listen, "you NEED one of these barrels!" Lol.

[BrianKr]

TR, I'm not a gunsmith so you need to look into this further. But on 1911s the slide would be put in a vise and squeezed a bit to tighten that fit. I wouldn't try that at home. I'd contact a professional. I have absolutely no idea if it would work on a M&P.

FWIW, mine has a bit of play also. If it was a 1911 I'd say it was unacceptable and I'd call it loose, but for some reason it seems to work for the M&P. I can't explain it. Maybe I'm so happy to get a gun I can finally use that I'm overlooking a few things. USPSA isn't a game of extreme accuracy anyway, until the target is out at 35 yards or so. But even then <2" @ 25 yds is sufficient for the long shots when they show up. They'd still all be easy A zone hits with that accuracy.

W2R, yup how about that for a confidence builder! It makes a HUGE difference to know that the gun is up to it and all that remains is the shooter to do his part. I found exactly the same thing my first match with the barrel. I have my next match next weekend; all stages classifiers, 6 of them. That's going to be fun, and I know the gun is up to it.

[want2race]

Ooh, has anyone chronographed the Apex and compared it with the stocker (same ammo)? I'm curious if it's faster or slower. I can probably get to it next week...

[BrianKr]

Not yet. It's on the docket.

BTW, to whoever needs this info', Apex makes no claims for 160 grain bullets, but that's what I'm shooting (rabbit fart loads- 128 pf) and they're good out to 25 yds. I haven't shot groups beyond that yet.

[TacticalReload]

Brian. I've thought about trying the 160 gr bullets but I was afraid of issues with the case wall thickness. What is your recipe?

[BrianKr]

My cartridge box label:

160 gr Coated Bayou Bullet
1.160" LOA
3.2gr Power Pistol
800 fps PF 128 Target

Of course your mileage may vary.

Be aware that it's not a final load; I still need to fine tune it a bit. It burns a bit dirty and I just haven't revisited it yet to fix it or to go to another powder if I can't make it burn cleaner. My other powder would be WW231 but I'm reluctant to use powder that fast with a heavy bullet, so it's a last resort. I want to try seating the bullet deeper to increase pressure and hopefully make it cleaner burning. I have no interest in higher velocity/pf, so more powder is a non starter for me. I like the rabbit fart of this load a great deal. :-)

The first match I shot this load at, after the match, the RO told me that the brass just "rolls out of my gun". But it cycles 100% so I'm not concerned. That would be a few hundred rounds with no malfunctions in testing and comp'. My recoil spring system is a JP something or other. The heavier of the 2 springs in the kit.

If I go deeper I might run into wall thickness problems, but no problems so far with mixed range brass at that OAL.

Edited May 8, 2016 by BrianKr

[B585]

Where do you get HST bullets? Are they pulled? And are they more accurate than XTP's?

While doing some dry-firing today I noticed that when the striker is released, frequently there is horizontal movement of the dot. This probably explains why I'm getting horizontal spread, even with the Apex barrel. It appears that, while the Apex barrel has tightened up the barrel-to-slide fit as well as the vertical movement of the slide on the frame, there is still considerable movement side-to-side between the slide and frame. The inertia of the striker seems to be enough to upset the slide. I'm not sure how to deal with that except to try to spread the front rails / locking block a little bit. I took a measurement and there is a full hundredth of an inch difference between this locking block rails' outside width and one of the others that I have. I could order a spare one to play with, but I'm afraid that it might make the fit with the Apex barrel loose if it's not as tall.

To give you an idea of the amount of play, if I wiggle the slide side to side, the muzzle end will actually touch both sides of the inside of the dust cover area of the frame. The more I play with this gun, the more I wonder if design and production was secretly outsourced to Kel-Tec. Anyone have any ideas on the easiest way to open up the rails a tiny bit (without peening them)? I need to check the movement of the rear of the slide to make sure the rear rails aren't allowing a whole lot of sideways play as well... if so, there isn't much I can do about that one because if I make the front rails wider but the rears are still an issue then the slide will just pivot sideways around the front rails. I feel like if I can cut down on this movement, I can probably shrink the groups with the Apex even further (and maybe even improve on the terrible OEM barrel a little as well).

Mine does the same thing. I have no idea about fix. Right now the gun is more accurate than me so I am content.

[B585]

B585, I just went to a Ben Stoeger offset drop BladeTech for my CO gun and I love it. My wrist has flexibility issues and the slight drop that CO division allows works better with my wrist as compared to the Blackhawk it replaced. The BladeTech is designed to work with or w/o a red dot. Their BladeTech comes with their SS finger screws to adjust the tension.

It's a quality unit and well worth the price. Just an off the wall comment, so are their Ghost mag holders.

Thanks. That is good to know. I ordered one and it is supposed to be here on Friday. I am looking forward to trying it out.

Let me know how you like.

It took me a bit of playing with it to get it right (typical of all belt gear IMO), but I have a cant that works for me and I'm right above the belt, so I'm good to go. Once it's locked in it's not going to move.

My experience with holsters is pretty limited so take this for what it is worth, but I am very happy with this holster. Easy to adjust, easy and quick to draw from, yet it keeps the gun secure. Very happy with this purchase.

[Titaniumbadger22]

Ooh, has anyone chronographed the Apex and compared it with the stocker (same ammo)? I'm curious if it's faster or slower. I can probably get to it next week...

I did last weekend. The Apex barrel was 50 - 75 fps faster than stock. I was shooting 124 gr. Everglades plated bullets, 5.3 gr. Power Pistol loaded to 1.130 OAL.

Apex Barrel was 1100 - 1140 fps, with an average of 1116 for 5 shots. The stock barrel had an average of 1050 fps.

[Molon]

Where do you get HST bullets? Are they pulled? And are they more accurate than XTP's?

Yes.

Every Barrel Is A Law Unto Itself

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