Accuracy - What would you do?

[Molon]

05/08/16

To date, I’ve fired 850 rounds from the Apex barrel. There have been no malfunctions to report.

....

As before, the statistically insignificant 5-shot groups pictured below are strictly for kicks and giggles. These groups were fired off the bench at a distance of 50 yards.

This group was fired using Federal factory loaded 147 grain HST ammunition. The group has an extreme spread of 1.88”

This next group was fired using one of my standard hand-loads (not tuned for any particular barrel) that is seated with the Speer 124 Gold Dot bullet. The group has an extreme spread of 1.49”

Continuing with one of my standard hand-loads topped with the Hornady 90 grain XTP bullet, the Apex barrel turned in this 5-shot group with an extreme spread of 1.38”.

Lastly, my particular barrel has shown a preference for the 124 grain HST projectile. This 5-shot group was fired using my standard hand-load for that bullet. The group has an extreme spread of 0.93”.

....

Edited May 9, 2016 by Molon

[RH45]

Brian. I've thought about trying the 160 gr bullets but I was afraid of issues with the case wall thickness. What is your recipe?

It really depends on O.D. of bullet. I've used 160 grain sized .356, .357 & .358

With the bullets that were sized to .358, I HAD to use Federal brass, because it is thinner.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Molon, Very Nice. :bow:

Thanks for sharing.

[B585]

Molon,

Amazing shooting as always. Obviously your gun is a shooter with this setup. I am curious to know if your slide has any play when in battery?

Edited May 10, 2016 by B585

[rhowell309]

Ooh, has anyone chronographed the Apex and compared it with the stocker (same ammo)? I'm curious if it's faster or slower. I can probably get to it next week...

I did last weekend. The Apex barrel was 50 - 75 fps faster than stock. I was shooting 124 gr. Everglades plated bullets, 5.3 gr. Power Pistol loaded to 1.130 OAL.

Apex Barrel was 1100 - 1140 fps, with an average of 1116 for 5 shots. The stock barrel had an average of 1050 fps.

I had a chance to test today and my results were a bit different with jacketed ammo.

I would say both barrels were almost identical with my loads 124 grain Montana Gold on top of 4.0g of Titegroup using Federal Pistol Match primers.

I did see an increase in speed with the APEX barrel using factory 115 grain Blazer Brass about 26fps

Data attached

Edited May 11, 2016 by rhowell309

[want2race]

Thanks for posting the info. Hopefully I can test this week.

[B585]

While I certainly can't shoot as good as some of you, I thought I would share my latest results:

I got my Dawson Sights on so I had to try her out tonight. I was just out practicing/plinking and then I decided to do a test with my last 12 rounds. Although I did see improvement in my shooting with the Dawson Sights (~35% reduction in group size when combined with the SDI), I wanted to give the factory barrel a chance to redeem itself so I tested both barrels. First I put the factory barrel on and shot 6 shots at 24 yards with my hands resting on my tactical bag. Only 5 of the 6 hit the target. Of the ones that hit, there was at least an 8” extreme spread (my calipers don’t measure that big). I did forget to take a picture of those. Then I took the next 6 shots with the SDI. No other changes were made. Here’s a pic.

[BrianKr]

I'd say that's a bit better wouldn't you? I didn't read where you thought that was better. :-)

:-) But maybe you couldn't shoot before (your fault) and in the few minutes between groups you all of a sudden learned what to do. (Of course I jest. I've just "had it" with the S&W sycophants who think S&W can't make junk.)

Yeah, I'd be happy with that. :-) Good shootin'!

I'd also guess that the slide slop "problem" is on a back burner as far as correction. :-) Am I right? Same thing that I discovered (I'm assuming). The barrel magically also made the slide slop on my gun a non-issue. I'd love to have a really "slide tight" M&P to put a an Apex barrel into to see how it would shoot.

[want2race]

All we need are over sized locking blocks and sear housings. Then machine until the slide just fits.

[TacticalReload]

Yeah... That would be great. We might be able to get this gun down to one MOA. ;-)

[TacticalReload]

I think I've reached a point where I'm finally tapping out of the M&P platform. I took the gun back out to the range trying to work up the most accurate load. As evidenced by my photos and posts, I've always had a substantial amount of horizontal stringing. This was greatly reduced after installation of the Apex barrel, but it was still there. Not a big deal since we were still talking a reasonable group size. At the time, I had assumed that shot placement was due to dumb luck instead of mechanic problems. However, over time, a pattern emerged; and it really seemed that it was the slop between the slide and frame that was causing it.

As I've been shooting the gun more, the barrel / slide / frame has worn together a bit... and the horizontal stringing has been getting worse. I think the reason is that when the Apex barrel was very tight, the friction between the fitting pad on the lug and the locking block kept the side-to-side play to a minimum. However, now that the lockup isn't as extreme, the gun is reverting back to allowing the upper to move more freely. Don't get me wrong... I do not blame the Apex barrel in the slightest for this. It's clearly the problem with the sloppy fit of the gun as it came from the factory. The groups probably won't open up to much bigger than they are now, and I'm reasonably sure that the Apex barrel has cured the early unlocking & vertical stringing issues completely.

I tried to take video of this with the grip locked into a vice, but it's very hard to pickup so I'll just describe it instead. When I dry-fire the gun, the dot jumps to the left. Sometimes it barely moves and other times it moves a lot. I have a 6.5 MOA dot, and I would say that I've seen it jump to the left at least up to double the width of the dot when the striker releases. I tried to do some estimates at known distances and I'm seeing the dot move sideways the equivalent of around 6" at 35 yards during dry-fire from a rest. On top of all this, I've now started getting FTE at the rate of around 1:100, despite the fact that I religiously clean under the extractor.

My patience has pretty much come to an end. I sent the gun back to S&W once already, and they told me there is nothing wrong with it. As for the FTE, I know I could swap out the extractor for the Apex one, but I'm tired of replacing stuff on this gun to get it to work. The fact that it is starting to spread bullets holes out sideways again is the last straw for me. I wanted so badly for this to work out, but I think I'm pretty much at my wits' end. I'm going to take a bath on the resale; and I'm not quite sure if I also will sell my M&P40 as well, which actually shoots accurately. *sigh*

I know that folks are seeing that the Apex barrel are making the slide slop irrelevant, and hopefully it stays that way for you folks. Maybe my gun started off as just too far gone.

[want2race]

Bummer to hear. I just picked up a couple locking bocks and sear housings. I'm going to weld these up, then recut everything parallel. I'm curious if I notice a difference.

As for your extractor issue. I've had that happen on one in the past. There is a fix, without buying anything if you're interested.

[TacticalReload]

Sure... let me know. Even if it's academic, I still like to learn things.

If I had any welding skills, I probably would have also tried to weld up the locking block / sear housing as well. A man's gotta know his limitations; and sadly, welding leaves mine well in the rear-view mirror. Post up your results.

I don't even know where to go from here. I dumped all my Glock stuff when I transitioned to the M&P. Purchasing another Glock would feel like admitting defeat. ;-)

[B585]

I am hoping you will stay on this team....I have enjoyed your posts. Anyways, if you do feel like you have to move on...XDm?

[TacticalReload]

Thanks. Maybe I'll have a change of heart... most likely it will happen one way or the other based on what kind of wallet raping I get trying to sell the gun(s). Maybe when Shaun welds up his gun, I might jump back on board.

I guess I could always give the XDm a try. I have very limited experience with any XD guns, but I occasionally find that I have trouble with grip safeties. One of the reasons I haven't taken the 2011 plunge is because I find that there are times when I get too high on the grip. This is probably less of an issue with guns where I don't ride the thumb safety and not having a beavertail as part of the grip safety, but I guess I just haven't warmed to them. Or maybe it's because I worked in a gun shop back in the day and we sold a whole lot of HS2000's before Springfield started putting their name on the guns and selling them at a higher price tag.

Either way, if I spent 1/100th the amount of time actually shooting guns that I spend worrying about them, I'd be a hell of a lot better than I am! :-)

[BrianKr]

It's a bummer to read that it's not working for you. But it is what it is and you've been more than patient with it.

If I was going to move on I'd look into a CZ P-09. I handled one this past w/e that had been worked over by the owner and I think it would work for me. They are accurate out of the box or so I've been led to believe.

[want2race]

My recommendation, if you are staying with striker fired... the 320 or PPQ. I've worked on a few 320's and got the pull weight down to 3.75 with factory parts (except the trigger spring I made). I really like the trigger reset sear for dry firing. Accuracy wise, it's even with my welded and recut factory barrel. The PPQ has an outstanding trigger. Very accurate too, just expensive.

However, Smith IS coming out with a new model too.

[want2race]

Not a fan of the xd at all.

[mwx40x40]

My recommendation, if you are staying with striker fired... the 320 or PPQ. I've worked on a few 320's and got the pull weight down to 3.75 with factory parts (except the trigger spring I made). I really like the trigger reset sear for dry firing. Accuracy wise, it's even with my welded and recut factory barrel. The PPQ has an outstanding trigger. Very accurate too, just expensive.

However, Smith IS coming out with a new model too.

New model MP? In what ways?

[TacticalReload]

My recommendation, if you are staying with striker fired... the 320 or PPQ. I've worked on a few 320's and got the pull weight down to 3.75 with factory parts (except the trigger spring I made). I really like the trigger reset sear for dry firing. Accuracy wise, it's even with my welded and recut factory barrel. The PPQ has an outstanding trigger. Very accurate too, just expensive.

However, Smith IS coming out with a new model too.

New model MP? In what ways?

Version 2.0 as some people are speculating. Something as a result of the MHS trials, but it's been talked about for quite a while and no one has seen anything concrete. Funny how we can find prototypes for the iPhone 17, but handgun manufacturers are pretty tight lipped.

As for actually buying a new Smith & Wesson model... fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me... for me 14 times, seriously, wtf is my problem.

My recommendation, if you are staying with striker fired... the 320 or PPQ. I've worked on a few 320's and got the pull weight down to 3.75 with factory parts (except the trigger spring I made). I really like the trigger reset sear for dry firing. Accuracy wise, it's even with my welded and recut factory barrel. The PPQ has an outstanding trigger. Very accurate too, just expensive.

However, Smith IS coming out with a new model too.

I find the Q5 Match intriguing but I'm not keen on losing the BUIS... another thing that seemed to happen on my last range trip is my RMR is starting to get the "fading dot" syndrome, too. I have already tried the "bend the contacts and add electrical tape" tricks. We'll see how it goes. I'm impatiently waiting to see what the P320 target model ends up looking like.

I toyed around with a P320 at a gun shop recently. I know you said it is accurate, but do you find the loose fit of the slide to frame (or more correctly, the FCU to the frame) to be an issue? There was so much vertical play between the slide and the grip module that it gave me the willies -- especially with the way the M&P has been for me.

I should have never quit shooting revolvers.

[want2race]

The MHS trials: 90% hit probability in 4" target at 50m. Any manufacturer in the running will have to do that. Also read that S&W partnered with another large company for their submittal.

The 320 target. Yes the frame module to slide fit is not as tight as it could be. However it is one of the issues the target model was supposed to address. Not sure it will make the final cut though. If not, it's SS. I will Tig it and recut. There are other rumors about that gun too. If they do 90% of what in hearing, I will buy one.

[B585]

Not a fan of the xd at all.

Why no love for the XD?

[RH45]

Did you fit that bbl, or was it fit by Apex?

While I certainly can't shoot as good as some of you, I thought I would share my latest results:

I got my Dawson Sights on so I had to try her out tonight. I was just out practicing/plinking and then I decided to do a test with my last 12 rounds. Although I did see improvement in my shooting with the Dawson Sights (~35% reduction in group size when combined with the SDI), I wanted to give the factory barrel a chance to redeem itself so I tested both barrels. First I put the factory barrel on and shot 6 shots at 24 yards with my hands resting on my tactical bag. Only 5 of the 6 hit the target. Of the ones that hit, there was at least an 8” extreme spread (my calipers don’t measure that big). I did forget to take a picture of those. Then I took the next 6 shots with the SDI. No other changes were made. Here’s a pic.

[B585]

Did you fit that bbl, or was it fit by Apex?

I fit the barrel. That was the first time I ever did anything like that so I watched Randy's video several times and I took my time. Mine required minimal material removal.

While I certainly can't shoot as good as some of you, I thought I would share my latest results:

I got my Dawson Sights on so I had to try her out tonight. I was just out practicing/plinking and then I decided to do a test with my last 12 rounds. Although I did see improvement in my shooting with the Dawson Sights (~35% reduction in group size when combined with the SDI), I wanted to give the factory barrel a chance to redeem itself so I tested both barrels. First I put the factory barrel on and shot 6 shots at 24 yards with my hands resting on my tactical bag. Only 5 of the 6 hit the target. Of the ones that hit, there was at least an 8” extreme spread (my calipers don’t measure that big). I did forget to take a picture of those. Then I took the next 6 shots with the SDI. No other changes were made. Here’s a pic.

[want2race]

I've shot a few XD's. Granted, I've not done any trigger jobs on them so I'm only comparing stock. Nor have I demo'd anyone's worked over XD. I have issues with the grip safety, trigger feel and reset length. Feels top heavy when shooting. Accuracy is below Glock by a good margin. Grip is comfortable and points naturally though. Yes, I know TGO's gun shoots 4" at 50m and I'm sure the trigger is stupid nice. However, his is about as stock as my M&P. Just my opinion on it though.