munsonbw

I am also curious, though I doubt I will ever think about it. i do appreciate seeing the work people put into things they could just buy.

For the sake of trying to fight the good fight, I would see if you can get a tech on the phone and get his email address. Ask if you can be so kind as to show him the results before and after someone made a fix to their product. With the current level or interest they have shown i guess you will get no where, but I just wonder how they can argue. Keep in my one of their "techs" (seemed to know a reasonable amount) told me "this gun should shoot 3-4" at 25yds". not combat accurate, not accurate as you are, but he stated a specific group size.

B585, First, you are spot on with the forum. That is why I only posed the question I had about the M&P accuracy here. I read many threads on other gun forums that would have run TacticalReload out of town for defending his gun accuracy issues. Even in the face of before and after targets with other compelling arguments he would likely be labelled a glock fanboy. Oh well, their loss as he has done a lot of work to prove what can be done with the Apex upgrades to, in my mind, prove that a poor shooting gun is real and can be fixed. I just started competition shooting in Feb. doing a monthly IDPA match. I was lucky and found a fantastic club. We run an "outlaw" match which means cover garment is optional, we use non-standard targets like bowling pins, etc. The group of guys is also great. Fair warning, some IDPA matches have been known to be full of super serious guys screaming "cover" at you all the time. Don't be discouraged if you find these guys. I have not shot USPSA yet (but intend to) and I would argue that IDPA or maybe even something like a bowling pin match or steel match would be a good place to start. IDPA has more rules as I understand it than USPSA, but at the same time the course of fire is dictated to you and generally speaking there is less going on. IDPA also tends to reward accuracy over time, which will allow you to take time on shots and be more deliberate. Your first couple of matches will be a disaster. Penalties and misses will likely kill your score, but that is all normal I am told. I have been shooting my Commander size 1911 in CDP with no magwell. My draws are slow and I fumble my reloads (that is when I actually notice I am at slide lock!) and I still manage to finish 9/13. I guess my point in this is just to find a match and go. You do not need to be a fast shooter to have fun. The most important thing, by a mile, is safety. Understand what the 180 rule is and practice handling your gun and moving with your finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard. Failing to following these rules will get you sent home. Tell them you are a new shooter and ask if there is someone you can squad with that can help show you the ropes. Odds are high they will not be a-holes and will make sure you are safe and have fun. PM if you want to know anything else from my first experiences. Search on youtube for: "Introduction to IDPA - a Tutorial for Beginners" It's a good overview.

While we are on the topic of light strikes, I just received my Apex spring kit. Would you guys run the Apex striker spring and see how it performs or just stay away from it all together? I have a Pro and decided to just stay with the factory sear, but change springs. I know I can try it and see, but what does the forum think is best? Thanks ben

I forgot that you bought the Performance Center gun. That would really rub me the wrong way if your gun when returned is as bad as it started for accuracy. I think the extra money for the Pro does not necessarily imply a better gun. Better sights, longer barrel and lower production numbers seems to about equal $100 up-charge to me. Now add the money for the PC gun and you start wondering why the money should not have gone towards at least picking the best/better fitting barrels and slides out of the parts bin. Oh well. For a long time Range Rovers were terribly built vehicles, but it didn't stop people from buying them for various reasons. Don't even get me started on the compact car thing. We seem to have more in common than choice of gun... I wonder if S&W will have a special series of guns for the military. You may know that Springfield made a 1911 for the FBI trials that is known as the Pro. Those guns are worth $3000+ used and are a far cry from the SA standard 1911. I do wonder, though, if the M&Ps sold to LE go through any special checks. I just cannot imagine the potential liability and reputation implications if a bad guy killed a cop, or if a cop killed a by-standard, and the lawyers learn that the gun used patterns like a shotgun and MAY have contributed to the missing of intended targets. Would be an interesting study to get one of the LE trade-ins and bench it. Ben

We've ended up with several threads talking the same thing, but since the last couple of posts here also bring in other guns to the discussion I'll post here. I am on the fence about the whole accuracy/barrel issue with the M&P. Like any (nearly any) product, there will be examples that escape factory quality control. There will also be times when the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge or accept some examples as being "defective". There is also a strong tendency on this board to expect high levels of accuracy from a competition gun. Regardless of why it seems likely for some here that the only way to get an acceptable M&P is to add a trigger kit and barrel. Take a gun that is about $550, add $100 for a trigger kit (or less if you just go with the spring kit) and $200 for the barrel and you are at $850. I think to be fair we should also consider what it costs to get other guns to the same level of accuracy and quality of trigger. I think there is a reason why CGW gets the money they do for their CZs. Sure, there are reports here that a stock 75 outshoots the M&P. But it needs a trigger job and does the stock CZ equal the M&P with Apex upgrades? Or a Tanfo Stock 2 at $850 as well, and that assumes the stock trigger is acceptable. One must also consider why we are even messing with improving a "flawed" gun. For me, I just did not like the feel of a Glock and at my level of skill the feel of the gun was most important. I have also seen reports of sub-par accuracy from them too. Granted not to the extent you find on the M&P, but it happens. I tried out the XDm comp too, $100 more and could have also benefited from a trigger kit. Maybe a PPQ or some of the lesser known guns could have been choices, but I also thought about aftermarket support making accessories more expensive and negating any savings. So for the foreseeable future I am happy with my choice. On my first outing my bench rest group at 10yds with PMC 115gr was pretty much the same as my Dan Wesson shooting a 200gr SWC handload (read: to the best that I am able to shoot). A little worse results when shooting freehand, but being the first time out it was as expected. I am looking forward to installing the comp spring kit and benching it again at further distances to see what I get with mine.

mpeltier, all, I also believe S&W are very well aware of what is going on. In fact, before I bought mine I called them and asked for tech support. I asked some general questions then hit him with the accuracy question. His response was something on the order of blaming the internet for propagating myths or something of the sort. I have no doubt that the people on this board who have accuracy issues do have issues with the gun and not them. Too many before and after examples. What I am not sure of is why when people send their gun back S&W responds with the statement "nothing is wrong". It is certainly not uncommon for a manufacturer to silently correct issues, but to pretend that a gun that shoots 8" groups is OK when the tech guy himself stated the gun should shoot 3-4" at 25yd is hard to understand. TacticalReload, Let us know how your gun shoots after you get it back from S&W. I wonder if they fixed something and are claiming they didn't? I cannot imagine that to be an effective strategy, but who knows. Ben

I assume you have tested your gun? While there are clearly guns that shoot far worse than acceptable accuracy, not all are bad.

I'll go with the Apex stuff. Sounds like the easiest and most sensible way for me at this point. I need to get a recoil spring and I hope to also find a reduced weight mag release spring for my 1911. I didn't realize how much of a bear that thing was until trying out the M&P. Thanks again for the help. ben

Do you think for the first go around I should just use the Apex springs? I am comfortable with tuning and tweaking things in general, but at the same time I do not want to end up with an unsafe gun. I guess it will be obvious what needs to be done when I get it in there?

After my local IDPA match (I'm getting better!), I had a local skilled shooter bench rest my M&P Pro to verify where it is shooting. Turns out it was not me, but it is the sight alignment. It definitely shoots left, as confirmed by him and also by me when I had bench rested it. Interestingly, when I benched it I was getting pretty much only left but when he shot it the POI was both left and low. He shot it rested exactly where i was hitting freehand after finally getting comfortable with the gun. So, perhaps we both were holding the sight picture a little high for the M&P. I forgot to ask what his sight picture was, but I remember when benching it I tried to put the FO on the bull. After getting back from the range on the first outing I could easily see that the rear sight was not centered in the slide, but I was not sure that was a good indicator of alignment. In this case it was. So, for this weekend I will work on polishing up the internals. The guy shooting it didn't think the trigger was too bad and estimated about 4#. I guess I am spoiled by my Dan Wesson which feels WAAAY lighter than the M&P. I'll probably hold off on the full Apex CAEK for now and maybe try the glock trigger spring that want2race suggested.

I may have it mistaken with another gun, but wasn't the stuff inside the spring to get rid of the cheap "sproing!" sound?

So if I understand your recipe you: * stone and polish sear and trigger bar * resahpe striker block * Glock trigger return spring Anything else? I am a DIY kind of guy and I like the idea of trying to do the work, but at the same time I have more projects than time these days...

I have been reading a bit here and there on trigger jobs for the M&P. What is the consensus among those following this thread? I want to run (or at least I think I do...) SSP and Production, so no FSS trigger. So, either the Apex Duty/Carry or Competition trigger kit or Burwell job. I think at this point shipping my gun to Burwell is not likely to be the path. My dad has done some smithing, but he is 10 hours away. I am fairly competent at mechanical work and could probably pull it off, but maybe that is not so smart at this point? I think the Apex is the logical choice to get good trigger without getting hung up on the last 5% that a custom job would achieve. Do you agree? Most of the Apex info I have found is focused on dual purpose guns and the DCEAK wins. This is a competition and range gun, so then the Comp kit is the logical choice? Thanks ben

I thought the same thing. Their loss.