raggedclaws Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I read on a PPC forum that HP-38 and WW231 are the same powder. I'm looking for a powder to load some low/mid range velocity 148 gr dewc for my S&W 586. I can't find any ww231 or bullseye powder on line right now so I'm looking for an alternative (Clays maybe?). Once again, any help will be greatly appreciated. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Same powder, go online and download a burn rate chart, look at the powders in the same general area as the powders you normally use. Generally soemthing with similar burn rate will give similar results. You must use different data of course. A quick look at Hodgdon, Acurate,Aliiant's websight should give you several decent powders and basic start load info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Solo 1000 will work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 They are not the SAME powder however the characteristics are very close. Different burn rate charts will show powders in different positions. The Ramshot chart shows HP 38 as 19th and W231 as 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 I have seen emails from Hodgdon posted confirming HP-38 and W231 are infact the same exact powder, just relabeled.. Call them, they'll confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caz41 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Can someone post a link to the burn rate chart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 The current Hodgdon data shows EXACTLY the same loads, velocities, and pressures for HP38 and W231. Obviously they are labeling the same powder both ways to suit demand. Back before Hodgdon got in as distributor for Winchester powders, there was some difference. Lyman Pistol & Revolver 2nd Ed, 1994 shows 10% or so difference in .38 Special and nearly as much in other calibers. Hodgdon's burn rate chart is at: http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 According to Mike Daley at Hodgdon, W231 and HP-38 are indeed the same powder. Winchester and Hodgdon both get the powder from the exact same OEM manufacturer. The only difference is the label on the bottle. That being the case, I do find the loading manuals that list different load data for the two powders hideously amusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 They may be the same now that Hodgdon is marketing/selling the same powder under different labels but that does not hold true to the original HP38 and W231. Forty years ago Hodgdon started selling surplus powders and put their own numbers on them. Examples H4895, H4831 these powders did not have the same characteristics as the IMR powders they were emulating but then my reloading experience only goes back to 1965. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Okay. Let's just say that today they're the same powder, and have been for years, and call it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Sounds good to me. Now for summer time so I can use up the HP38 and get into the 8# of W231. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I thought I read somewhere that they were the same base powder but one had some kind of flash suppressant added to it. Maybe that was WW-296 and H-110. I'm not sure. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I have shot a ton of .38 cal lead wdcutters with Clays and International Clays.... some good starters are; 3.0 grains of Clays with a 148gn DEWC - is almost 120pf and very accurate... 3.3gns of International - is a little stouter & around 123pf with the same bullet. You won't need any more than the loads listed for bullseye / target work and may even be able to back them down by .2 or so if you are only shooting 25 yards. 3.0 grains of Alliant Clay Dot works fine but I find it smokey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Burn Rate Chart - http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html I have used 231 and HP38 (depending on what is available) interchangeably. BUT when changing all usual care and attention to start loads is a good idea. I had an older bunch of 231 that I had been slowly working through after years on HP38 and when that ran out I had to go back to HP38, the loads were quite gentle but the new batch of powder was a little hotter. 3.2gr DEWC 148gr 38cal, usually got me 845 - 855fps. This lot went in at 890fps and they were all over the paper, like putting and extra .2grains in. Backed the load off to 3.1gr and it was just a shade hotter than intended but shot well. I have now eased the laod a little more and got it back to where I like it and got 10lb of that batch of HP38. I believe that before Hodgdon took over the distribution of Winchester Powders that the Winchester powders varied a little too much from batch to batch, that is why I preffered to use HP38, but in the last 4 or 5 years that variation has been noticably lessened. My 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Interesting info. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakshow10mm Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Hodgdon and Winchester share the same powder from St Marks in Florida. HP38 and W231 are the exact same powder, called SMP #231. H414 is also the same exact powder as W760, called SMP #760. W296 and H110 are also the same exact powder, known as SMP #296. Winchester uses the same numerical designation in their canister powders, which are the same exact powder they use in their factory ammunition, as the St Marks Powder Company designates. There is no equivalent for Hodgdon but Winchester W748 is SMP #748. Winchester AutoComp is SMP #224. They've been using it in factory .380 ACP ammunition for decades. Winchester dropped WAP in favor of bringing out AutoComp (SMP #224) to the handloading market but Western Powder Company (ie Accurate and Ramshot) now markets that same exact powder as Ramshot Silhouette. Data from Silhouette and WAP can be interchanged as it's the same exact powder. Exact doesn't mean close enough, it's the same in every respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Wow. Good info. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Hodgdon and Winchester share the same powder from St Marks in Florida. HP38 and W231 are the exact same powder, called SMP #231. H414 is also the same exact powder as W760, called SMP #760. W296 and H110 are also the same exact powder, known as SMP #296. Winchester uses the same numerical designation in their canister powders, which are the same exact powder they use in their factory ammunition, as the St Marks Powder Company designates. There is no equivalent for Hodgdon but Winchester W748 is SMP #748. Winchester AutoComp is SMP #224. They've been using it in factory .380 ACP ammunition for decades. Winchester dropped WAP in favor of bringing out AutoComp (SMP #224) to the handloading market but Western Powder Company (ie Accurate and Ramshot) now markets that same exact powder as Ramshot Silhouette. Data from Silhouette and WAP can be interchanged as it's the same exact powder. Exact doesn't mean close enough, it's the same in every respect. I'm betting it's a complete longshot, but do they do retail sales? I'm about 2 hours from St. Marks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakshow10mm Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 No, St Marks only sells volume to distributors and OEMs. If you have a manufacturer license and buy enough at a time, as in a few thousand pounds in one shipment, they will sell to you. Generally if you buy less than 1,000 pounds at a time small distributors are the way to go. I'm just a small one man commercial loader and get my OEM powder from Western (Ramshot/Accurate). Comes in 45 pound drums for about $12/pound delivered on truck. One drum of my pistol powder is about 52,500 rounds of ammo on average 6gr per round. I only get about 9,000 rounds per drum with my rifle powder (.223 and .308), also $12/pound delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Officer Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Hey guys, I just joined. I have been using 3.1gr of WW231 under a Speer 148 BBWC. Now I have had to go to Billy Bullets DEWC. The 3.1gr seems to throw the bullet around a little. Any experience with Billy Bullets or WW231 and DEWC in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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