M&P40 Pro

[Vlad]

I like your plan Jeff, but I think I'll need an new holster, my current M&P is narrowed at the bottom so I either need to open it up some (and worry about snagging my front sight) or get a new one.

Is the slide-width different than the 9-Pro???

I hope not but the length better be, my current holster has a semi closed bottom.

[twodownzero]

Who cares if it's approved for production??!!? It'll be an awesome limited gun!

Lots of people would care because they'd want to use them for more than one division.

I'm sure some will be used in Limited, but more will almost definitely be used in Production....same way you see a few Glocks in Limited (very few it seems) and tons in Production.

They also have to make 500 before it's legal for Limited. R,

I don't usually see too many Glock 35s in production, but perhaps your area is different.

I'm not sure about the numbers, but I do think there is a sizable minority (5-10%) of limited shooters shooting a Glock.

Hopefully this new model adds to the non S_I limited gun market nicely.

Going back the last five years, between 50 and 60% of the Production shooters were using Glocks at the Nationals. During that same timeframe, between 10 and 22% of the Production shooters were shooting .40.

During that same timeframe Glock #s in Limited ranged from under 2% to about 8%.

The .40 Pro is a nice addition, but it's not going to make much, if any dent, in the numbers of S_I guns in Limited (consistently 75-80%).

The vast majority of folks either think or know that a single action design is better for them in Limited, and that's not likely to change any time soon. R,

I agree and just recently procured my own single action limited gun after shooting my friend's for a few months.

Like I said before, there's a sizable minority of shooters choosing Glocks right now, and I suspect that an even smaller, but still sizable minority of shooters will choose the .40 Pro for the same purpose.

I love my STI and I'd love a fancy custom one even more, but I can still see how it'd be fun to shoot a production type rig in limited, especially if one could score major.

I have personally seen a lot of guys with production/major rigs shooting in L-10 just to score major.

It's probably not competitive, but it happens and they're having a good time, so why not?

[G-ManBart]

I agree and just recently procured my own single action limited gun after shooting my friend's for a few months.

Like I said before, there's a sizable minority of shooters choosing Glocks right now, and I suspect that an even smaller, but still sizable minority of shooters will choose the .40 Pro for the same purpose.

I love my STI and I'd love a fancy custom one even more, but I can still see how it'd be fun to shoot a production type rig in limited, especially if one could score major.

I have personally seen a lot of guys with production/major rigs shooting in L-10 just to score major.

It's probably not competitive, but it happens and they're having a good time, so why not?

I'm not so sure you really agree. I don't think that a single action gun makes any difference for most people at all...you seem to think it's an advantage.

You also seem to think that a Glock/M&P is a "Production rig" and isn't competitive in Limited or L-10. With mag extensions they're just as competitive as a $3,000 custom S_I and that's been proven repeatedly.

I'm not sure I'd call any group that's consistenly under 10% a sizeable anything, but that really has no bearing on the topic.

It's just my prediction, and it would be hard to ever verify, but I doubt there will be many folks buying a .40 Pro just to shoot Limited. If they do, they're probably mostly people who already shoot some form of M&P in Production. I guess it'll just take a few years to see the data from Nationals....wish more big matches would do equipment surveys.

[JeffWard]

It's just my prediction, and it would be hard to ever verify, but I doubt there will be many folks buying a .40 Pro just to shoot Limited. If they do, they're probably mostly people who already shoot some form of M&P in Production. I guess it'll just take a few years to see the data from Nationals....wish more big matches would do equipment surveys.

That's me... Jumping up from my 9mm PRO.

Are striker-fired guns limiting? Ask Dave S...

Looking forward to the jump in S&W pro shooters attacking Limited at the national level with M&P 40 Pros...

Jeff

[Xfactor]

It's just my prediction, and it would be hard to ever verify, but I doubt there will be many folks buying a .40 Pro just to shoot Limited. If they do, they're probably mostly people who already shoot some form of M&P in Production. I guess it'll just take a few years to see the data from Nationals....wish more big matches would do equipment surveys.

That's me... Jumping up from my 9mm PRO.

Are striker-fired guns limiting? Ask Dave S...

Looking forward to the jump in S&W pro shooters attacking Limited at the national level with M&P 40 Pros...

Jeff

+1

I have been looking forward to a 40 Pro for a long time now too... I love the M&P platform, and the 9 Pro has been my Production gun of choice since it came out a year and a half ago. As much as I love S_I Limited and Open guns, I agree with the reasons above that a stealthy "Production-looking" gun will be fun in Limited or Lim10

Kudos to S&W for getting this out sooner than expected... it seems like just the other day I was reading a thread where everyone was saying that a 40 Pro was going to be a LONG way off...

[twodownzero]

<!--quoteo(post=1136258:date=Jan 19 2010, 05:15 AM:name=twodownzero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twodownzero @ Jan 19 2010, 05:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1136258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree and just recently procured my own single action limited gun after shooting my friend's for a few months.

Like I said before, there's a sizable minority of shooters choosing Glocks right now, and I suspect that an even smaller, but still sizable minority of shooters will choose the .40 Pro for the same purpose.

I love my STI and I'd love a fancy custom one even more, but I can still see how it'd be fun to shoot a production type rig in limited, especially if one could score major.

I have personally seen a lot of guys with production/major rigs shooting in L-10 just to score major.

It's probably not competitive, but it happens and they're having a good time, so why not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm not so sure you really agree. I don't think that a single action gun makes any difference for most people at all...you seem to think it's an advantage.

You also seem to think that a Glock/M&P is a "Production rig" and isn't competitive in Limited or L-10. With mag extensions they're just as competitive as a $3,000 custom S_I and that's been proven repeatedly.

I'm not sure I'd call any group that's consistenly under 10% a sizeable anything, but that really has no bearing on the topic.

It's just my prediction, and it would be hard to ever verify, but I doubt there will be many folks buying a .40 Pro just to shoot Limited. If they do, they're probably mostly people who already shoot some form of M&P in Production. I guess it'll just take a few years to see the data from Nationals....wish more big matches would do equipment surveys.

Dave Sevigny is living proof that the Glock can be competitive in Limited, L-10, etc. S_I's are my choice because I shoot more single stack than anything else, so it was easier for me to pick up an STI than to try to shoot a Glock. They are the choice of many others because America has a love affair with the 1911 that is not just limited to practical shooting.

1/5 of a majority is a sizable minority in my book. I'm not sure why you'd even bother arguing otherwise. 10% or even 5% is certainly a sizable minority. That's an awful lot of people choosing equipment that is tremendously unpopular for the division.

[G-ManBart]

Dave Sevigny is living proof that the Glock can be competitive in Limited, L-10, etc. S_I's are my choice because I shoot more single stack than anything else, so it was easier for me to pick up an STI than to try to shoot a Glock. They are the choice of many others because America has a love affair with the 1911 that is not just limited to practical shooting.

1/5 of a majority is a sizable minority in my book. I'm not sure why you'd even bother arguing otherwise. 10% or even 5% is certainly a sizable minority. That's an awful lot of people choosing equipment that is tremendously unpopular for the division.

Glocks have never come close to 1/5th (20%) of Limited...not sure where you got that number. The highest has been 7% and the lowest under 2% (think it was 1.7). Those are numbers from Nationals as nobody else seems to keep track. 2004 there were 3 Glock shooters in Limited, 7 in 2005, etc...the hightest I saw was 15 shooters. That's in a field of 200-250 shooters. Sorry, I just don't see 10 or 15 out of 250 as a sizeable anything.

And while I'm not picking on you, and I may be mistaken, but it doesn't sound like you've been shooting USPSA all that long. I'm far from the best travelled shooter, but in the last couple of years I've shot matches in 12 different states and no less than 17 different clubs that I can recall. That's not a huge number, but it's a pretty decent spread across the country. In all those different places there's normally one or two guys (often none at all) shooting a Glock in Limited....that's it. If it's one or two guys/gals here or there, it's not really a sizeable group.

So, we might see one or two folks at matches now shooting an M&P in Limited, which is cool, but still isn't a big number any way you slice it....heck, there aren't even that many shooting them in Production yet (although the trend is up).

I'm going to order one as soon as I can, but it's going to be another Production gun, and one that I can use my allotment of training ammo in. I guess it could be a backup to my Limited gun, but I couldn't substitute it in a match because it's of a different type, and that's not allowed. R,

[mjoy64]

Dave Sevigny is living proof that the Glock can be competitive in Limited, L-10, etc. S_I's are my choice because I shoot more single stack than anything else, so it was easier for me to pick up an STI than to try to shoot a Glock. They are the choice of many others because America has a love affair with the 1911 that is not just limited to practical shooting.

1/5 of a majority is a sizable minority in my book. I'm not sure why you'd even bother arguing otherwise. 10% or even 5% is certainly a sizable minority. That's an awful lot of people choosing equipment that is tremendously unpopular for the division.

Glocks have never come close to 1/5th (20%) of Limited...not sure where you got that number. The highest has been 7% and the lowest under 2% (think it was 1.7). Those are numbers from Nationals as nobody else seems to keep track. 2004 there were 3 Glock shooters in Limited, 7 in 2005, etc...the hightest I saw was 15 shooters. That's in a field of 200-250 shooters. Sorry, I just don't see 10 or 15 out of 250 as a sizeable anything.

And while I'm not picking on you, and I may be mistaken, but it doesn't sound like you've been shooting USPSA all that long. I'm far from the best travelled shooter, but in the last couple of years I've shot matches in 12 different states and no less than 17 different clubs that I can recall. That's not a huge number, but it's a pretty decent spread across the country. In all those different places there's normally one or two guys (often none at all) shooting a Glock in Limited....that's it. If it's one or two guys/gals here or there, it's not really a sizeable group.

So, we might see one or two folks at matches now shooting an M&P in Limited, which is cool, but still isn't a big number any way you slice it....heck, there aren't even that many shooting them in Production yet (although the trend is up).

I'm going to order one as soon as I can, but it's going to be another Production gun, and one that I can use my allotment of training ammo in. I guess it could be a backup to my Limited gun, but I couldn't substitute it in a match because it's of a different type, and that's not allowed. R,

All of that sounds right. I would think that there would be a few more around the local matches than at the larger ones though. So... the number is probably a bit larger overall for the sport. For me the appeal is that I shoot USPSA and IDPA. I'd like to occasionally run my same (basic) platform in Limited w/o the drawback of minor PF scoring. As far as production setups... I've been seeing almost as many M&Ps as Glocks at the local matches I shoot. Of course I'm adding to that number!

[Nik Habicht]

I guess it could be a backup to my Limited gun, but I couldn't substitute it in a match because it's of a different type, and that's not allowed. R,

You might want to take an RO class, or read the current version of the rulebook :devil: , 'cause an M&P could be a substitute handgun for your Limited or even Open gun.....

Applicable Rules:

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

The NROI Instructor corps apparently believes/teaches that the "significant advantage" language exists to keep competitors from choosing a (different) handgun for a (each) stage. Match reality: You break your gun, they'll approve a substitution, but expect you to finish the match with the substitute gun, even if it's a multi-day match and you find a smith at the end of the day. As long as the substitute gun satisfies the division criteria, you're good to go....

[G-ManBart]

I guess it could be a backup to my Limited gun, but I couldn't substitute it in a match because it's of a different type, and that's not allowed. R,

You might want to take an RO class, or read the current version of the rulebook :devil: , 'cause an M&P could be a substitute handgun for your Limited or even Open gun.....

Applicable Rules:

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

The NROI Instructor corps apparently believes/teaches that the "significant advantage" language exists to keep competitors from choosing a (different) handgun for a (each) stage. Match reality: You break your gun, they'll approve a substitution, but expect you to finish the match with the substitute gun, even if it's a multi-day match and you find a smith at the end of the day. As long as the substitute gun satisfies the division criteria, you're good to go....

Oh, I keep a copy handy, but you're right, I forgot they removed the "same type, action, and caliber" requirement....geeze, that's going back to the 2001 rules

I'm sure nobody would say anything, but there still might be a slight problem. I'm using a race holster for my Limited gun (so it's the same as Open). I can't use one for the M&P, which would put the holster in a different position and 5.2.5.3 prohibits changing holster/pouch position during the match. Like I said, I doubt anybody would argue it, but I'm not sure it's something that could be waived just because. R,

[twodownzero]

Dave Sevigny is living proof that the Glock can be competitive in Limited, L-10, etc. S_I's are my choice because I shoot more single stack than anything else, so it was easier for me to pick up an STI than to try to shoot a Glock. They are the choice of many others because America has a love affair with the 1911 that is not just limited to practical shooting.

1/5 of a majority is a sizable minority in my book. I'm not sure why you'd even bother arguing otherwise. 10% or even 5% is certainly a sizable minority. That's an awful lot of people choosing equipment that is tremendously unpopular for the division.

Glocks have never come close to 1/5th (20%) of Limited...not sure where you got that number. The highest has been 7% and the lowest under 2% (think it was 1.7). Those are numbers from Nationals as nobody else seems to keep track. 2004 there were 3 Glock shooters in Limited, 7 in 2005, etc...the hightest I saw was 15 shooters. That's in a field of 200-250 shooters. Sorry, I just don't see 10 or 15 out of 250 as a sizeable anything.

And while I'm not picking on you, and I may be mistaken, but it doesn't sound like you've been shooting USPSA all that long. I'm far from the best travelled shooter, but in the last couple of years I've shot matches in 12 different states and no less than 17 different clubs that I can recall. That's not a huge number, but it's a pretty decent spread across the country. In all those different places there's normally one or two guys (often none at all) shooting a Glock in Limited....that's it. If it's one or two guys/gals here or there, it's not really a sizeable group.

So, we might see one or two folks at matches now shooting an M&P in Limited, which is cool, but still isn't a big number any way you slice it....heck, there aren't even that many shooting them in Production yet (although the trend is up).

I'm going to order one as soon as I can, but it's going to be another Production gun, and one that I can use my allotment of training ammo in. I guess it could be a backup to my Limited gun, but I couldn't substitute it in a match because it's of a different type, and that's not allowed. R,

1/5 of what would be called a majority is 10% (.2 x .5 = .1)

I've been shooting USPSA for 5 years, two years as a member, and shot matches in Illinois, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey.

I have never seen a lot of Glocks, but every match I've been to with 20-30 limited shooters has had at least one.

I never said they were popular, but they're definitely not completely absent.

I have also seen people shooting XDs in limited, complete with large mag wells, lots of trigger work, slide lightening, etc.

I don't think everyone is going to throw down their STIs and pick up a Glock (I know I certainly am not), but they're definitely competitive at the highest levels, and shooters looking to move from production to limited now have a choice to stick with the same platform.

I don't know about you, but I love the idea of being able to compete in production and limited with a gun that is just a different caliber with the same frame, just as I enjoy the easy transition from single stack to limited when I pull the STI out of the bag.

There is good reason why the S_I is popular among limited and open shooters, but I'm excited and happy to see other guns at matches, too. Equipment gawking is one of the most fun things about this sport!!

I'm using a race holster for my Limited gun (so it's the same as Open). I can't use one for the M&P, which would put the holster in a different position and 5.2.5.3 prohibits changing holster/pouch position during the match. Like I said, I doubt anybody would argue it, but I'm not sure it's something that could be waived just because. R,

Why couldn't you use a race holster for an M&P?

Edited January 20, 2010 by twodownzero

[Nik Habicht]

I'm sure nobody would say anything, but there still might be a slight problem. I'm using a race holster for my Limited gun (so it's the same as Open). I can't use one for the M&P, which would put the holster in a different position and 5.2.5.3 prohibits changing holster/pouch position during the match. Like I said, I doubt anybody would argue it, but I'm not sure it's something that could be waived just because. R,

Pop the kydex into the same position on the belt as your race holster, and you're good to go.....

We're not photographing/measuring competitors on the first day of Nationals either, to ensure that your holster rides x centimeters away from and Y centimeters below/above your belly button either....

Odds are that if you needed to avail yourself of a substitute gun, you would have already bombed a stage....

[G-ManBart]

Why couldn't you use a race holster for an M&P?

The race holster I use isn't made for the M&P (yet...not sure). I'm using a DOH for Production with the M&P. Someone might make an M&P "race" holster, but I haven't tried to keep up with that. Last I knew Ribas and Ghost didn't....maybe CR Speed, Safariland or Limcat has come out with one...not sure. R,

[G-ManBart]

Pop the kydex into the same position on the belt as your race holster, and you're good to go.....

We're not photographing/measuring competitors on the first day of Nationals either, to ensure that your holster rides x centimeters away from and Y centimeters below/above your belly button either....

Odds are that if you needed to avail yourself of a substitute gun, you would have already bombed a stage....

Yeah, a DOH bouncing off the right front of my leg wouldn't work very well, and wouldn't exactly be a smooth/fast setup

I get that nobody is being that specific, but I don't see the rules, as written, allowing any leeway there. Sure, you're probably not going to get called on it, but that doesn't make it really right in my mind. Yes, you probably have bombed a stage, but it's possible you didn't....I know a guy that spotted a crack in his barrel rib (sight tracker style) between stages and it didn't cost him a point...just switched to his backup gun.

Now, if I'm that guy, and I switch from my 2011, with a cracked barrel, to my M&P .40 Pro, and have to go with a kydex holster in a different position, and just happen to still win my class at a big match, and the #2 guy is really smart, he can call BS and he'd be completely within his rights. Was it an advantage? No. Was it really within the rules? No. Was it within the spirit of the rules? Probably, from what I can tell. R,

[twodownzero]

If your substitute gun was approved, I fail to see the problem. The holster position argument isn't going to work.

[Nik Habicht]

Now, if I'm that guy, and I switch from my 2011, with a cracked barrel, to my M&P .40 Pro, and have to go with a kydex holster in a different position, and just happen to still win my class at a big match, and the #2 guy is really smart, he can call BS and he'd be completely within his rights. Was it an advantage? No. Was it really within the rules? No. Was it within the spirit of the rules? Probably, from what I can tell. R,

And you still have the option of telling match organizers that you don't want to win that way, in that situation.....

Or you could switch to kydex for the race guns or at least move your holster to a proper place where you could wear any holster..... :devil:

[G-ManBart]

If your substitute gun was approved, I fail to see the problem. The holster position argument isn't going to work.

The gun substitute was approved, there is nothing in the rule about holster substitution.

The rules make no exception in the holster section for if you change guns. They simply say that the holster and mag pouches have to remain in the same position throughout the match...period, nothing more.

"5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command."

This is one of those rules that lots of people seem to be unaware of. They'll have a mag pouch centered on their zipper line and want to take it off for a stage where they'll have to go prone....not legal. Same thing for moving a holster a bit for a seated start...not legal.

If I start a match with the holster centered on my right front pocket, I can't switch holsters to one that's lined up on the seam of my pants (like a DOH) because the rules prohibit it. If NROI issues a ruling otherwise, then it would be okay, but not until that hapens. R,

[G-ManBart]

Now, if I'm that guy, and I switch from my 2011, with a cracked barrel, to my M&P .40 Pro, and have to go with a kydex holster in a different position, and just happen to still win my class at a big match, and the #2 guy is really smart, he can call BS and he'd be completely within his rights. Was it an advantage? No. Was it really within the rules? No. Was it within the spirit of the rules? Probably, from what I can tell. R,

And you still have the option of telling match organizers that you don't want to win that way, in that situation.....

Or you could switch to kydex for the race guns or at least move your holster to a proper place where you could wear any holster..... :devil:

That isn't the solution...it shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.

I don't have my holster in a crazy position, but it's a couple of inches from where a DOH or SS legal holster would be. I'd say it's in a "proper place" because it's in the same general place most of the the best Open and Limited shooters seem to have their guns as well. I don't think anybody is selling an M&P race holster right now. That simply means folks probably can't go from a race holster setup, worn the way almost everybody wears them, to anything you can use for an M&P and have the holster position be really within the rules.

Since I wouldn't want to see a Mod get yelled at for contributing to thread drift I'll leave the holster comments at that

[sperman]

Why couldn't you use a race holster for an M&P?

The race holster I use isn't made for the M&P (yet...not sure).  I'm using a DOH for Production with the M&P.  Someone might make an M&P "race" holster, but I haven't tried to keep up with that.  Last I knew Ribas and Ghost didn't....maybe CR Speed, Safariland or Limcat has come out with one...not sure.  R,

The CR Speed WSM2 works with the M&P.  You just have to remove the spacer.

[kend]

Why couldn't you use a race holster for an M&P?

The race holster I use isn't made for the M&P (yet...not sure).  I'm using a DOH for Production with the M&P.  Someone might make an M&P "race" holster, but I haven't tried to keep up with that.  Last I knew Ribas and Ghost didn't....maybe CR Speed, Safariland or Limcat has come out with one...not sure.  R,

The CR Speed WSM2 works with the M&P.  You just have to remove the spacer.

CR Speed makes a WSM2 specifically for the M&P now.

[Alfie]

Is it me or are these 5" 40 Pro's still impossible to buy? I can't seem to find one anywhere!

[pbosik]

i have been asking all the dist. we deal with , and no success!

[Rob D]

I can't wait to see what kind of trouble Phil gets into with these

[Prov1x]

I like your plan Jeff, but I think I'll need an new holster, my current M&P is narrowed at the bottom so I either need to open it up some (and worry about snagging my front sight) or get a new one.

Is the slide-width different than the 9-Pro???

I hope not but the length better be, my current holster has a semi closed bottom.

I bought an M&P Pro .40 5" last week and tried it in my Comp-Tac holster for my 9 pro and it wouldn't fit. I opened up the tension screws on the holster some and tried again but still a no go. I haven't tried it again to loosen the screws all the way yet but I would guess they would fall out from being so loose. I'll try again tonight and see what I come up with.

The part that looks like it is hitting is the upper/top portion of the slide. It seems to be just a tad wider than the 9 pro slide, fyi.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Prov1x

[shootingchef]

Bobby at Freedom gunworks has a few for sale. contact him via the forums.