USPSA Divisions & the 45 ACP

[Bongo Boy]

Being new to USPSA rules I'm struggling just a bit with the Division definitions, so I'm asking for a sanity check here. If I want to shoot a single-stack .45 ACP gun that is NOT a 1911 and don't want to be at a capacity disadvantage with a 10-rnd mag, it looks like Limited 10 is the best choice, am I correct? In fact, it looks like it may be the ONLY division that makes sense for a .45 at all unless you feel shooting major overshadows the 8-rnd limit of Single Stack. Thoughts? Does anyone shoot .45 ACP much? At matches above the local level?

[smokshwn]

.45 in a non 1911 platform with 10 rds will only fit in Limited 10.

Not many .45's in limited 10 at bigger matches however a few guys do it and run it just fine. Bill Filliaga comes to mind.

Lots of .45 in singlestack though.

[Pro2AInPA]

.45 in a non 1911 platform with 10 rds will only fit in Limited 10.

Not many .45's in limited 10 at bigger matches however a few guys do it and run it just fine. Bill Filliaga comes to mind.

Lots of .45 in singlestack though.

Couldn't he shoot production as long as it wasn't a single action only gun?

[twodownzero]

Nothing wrong with .45 in L-10. It's actually probably the best choice for soft recoil.

If your gun is production legal, you can shoot it in production with 10 round mags as well. You will be scored minor but it sure beats competing against the race guns in L-10 with a stock production gun.

Edited January 12, 2010 by twodownzero

[leam]

Of course, my friend James would point out that a 45 ACP revolver is quite nice.

Leam

[Corey]

somebody beat me to it, but if its a productino legal model you could always shoot there. You would have more firepower than necessary but you wouldnt be at a huge disadvantage with regards to equipment like you may be in limted or L-10. A buddy of mine mya be doing this until his G34 arrives

[Bongo Boy]

I don't think a 10-rnd single-stack .45 mag will fit in the box for Production, but I'm not 100% certain--I know it won't fit in the IDPA box, for sure.

Given no compensators or dots in L-10, what would a 'race gun' be in that Division?

Overall, based on my limited IDPA shooting, I think I'm so far away from the gun being a limiting factor that so long as I'm on par with number of reloads, I'll have nothing I can blame on gear and can just focus on doing the basics reasonably smoothly.

[DWFAN]

Please correct me if Im wrong, Im pretty new also.

The only people you'll be at a round count disadvantage to are the MINOR shooters. Unless they shoot all A's, I dont think you'll be at much of a disadvantage because they'll be down more points for B and C hits right ? All the .40 and .45 guys are shooting 8rd mags in Single Stack.

edit - But if you arent shooting a 1911 style, you cant shoot single stack. What gun are you thinking of using ?

Edited January 12, 2010 by DWFAN

[MichiganShootist]

I have seen shooters who were very competent in Ltd - 10 with a Glock 21 in their hand.

Bob Vogel shoots a Glock in Ltd 10 and beats damn near everyone he meets (his is a 40 however)

Edited January 12, 2010 by MichiganShootist

[leam]

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of single-stack non-1911 is it?

Leam

[smokshwn]

Please correct me if Im wrong, Im pretty new also.

The only people you'll be at a round count disadvantage to are the MINOR shooters. Unless they shoot all A's, I dont think you'll be at much of a disadvantage because they'll be down more points for B and C hits right ? All the .40 and .45 guys are shooting 8rd mags in Single Stack.

edit - But if you arent shooting a 1911 style, you cant shoot single stack. What gun are you thinking of using ?

Round count is limited to 10 in both production and L10 so there would be no round count disadvantage whatsoever in either division.

In Production everyone (regardless of caliber) is scored minor. In L10 .45 can be scored major so it will be on par there as well.

[Jeff686]

I don't think a 10-rnd single-stack .45 mag will fit in the box for Production, but I'm not 100% certain--I know it won't fit in the IDPA box, for sure.

Given no compensators or dots in L-10, what would a 'race gun' be in that Division?

Overall, based on my limited IDPA shooting, I think I'm so far away from the gun being a limiting factor that so long as I'm on par with number of reloads, I'll have nothing I can blame on gear and can just focus on doing the basics reasonably smoothly.

For reference:

USPSA Box: 8 15/16 x 6 x 1 5/8

IDPA Box: 8 12/16 x 6 x 1 5/8

Don't know if that 3/16" will matter.

Anyway, we don't know what gun he has, so there's no way to know if it will fit.

[DWFAN]

Please correct me if Im wrong, Im pretty new also.

The only people you'll be at a round count disadvantage to are the MINOR shooters. Unless they shoot all A's, I dont think you'll be at much of a disadvantage because they'll be down more points for B and C hits right ? All the .40 and .45 guys are shooting 8rd mags in Single Stack.

edit - But if you arent shooting a 1911 style, you cant shoot single stack. What gun are you thinking of using ?

Round count is limited to 10 in both production and L10 so there would be no round count disadvantage whatsoever in either division.

In Production everyone (regardless of caliber) is scored minor. In L10 .45 can be scored major so it will be on par there as well.

Yup, but he mentioned 8rd Limit in Single stack like it was a bad to be down 2rds to the Minor guys.

Too many variables until we find out what gun he's talking about. If its a Single stack but not a JMB/1911 type he cant shoot SS anyways.

[Flexmoney]

There is a pinned thread at the top of this forum that gives a summary of the USPSA divisions.

Instead of making everybody guess, just identify your gear so we can better help.

[leam]

Overall, based on my limited IDPA shooting, I think I'm so far away from the gun being a limiting factor that so long as I'm on par with number of reloads, I'll have nothing I can blame on gear and can just focus on doing the basics reasonably smoothly.

Number of Reloads. Max stage count for USPSA is IIRC 32. For production and L-10 that means 4 mags, even with a Barney round. Same for Single Stack. I've found myself having fun planning my reloads (SS). Revolver friendly stages are great as I have several 7 round mags. That gives me a full mag plus one in the chamber, then reload.

Leam

[Bongo Boy]

Sorry about the omission folks, it's a P220 (Stainless Elite) and it's on the production gun list. I edited my first post several times and didn't retain that info.

No, the 3/16" won't matter because it's the magazine length that's the problem (if I went with 10 rd mag). So, it would have to be an 8-rd mag in Production or a 10-rd in L-10 as the viable options, and it looks like what folks are suggesting is that I might do better in Production, even though my 9 and 10mm pals would have 2 extra rnds per mag there.

I think what I was really looking to verify was that L-10 would be the Division where all major shooters (.40 and .45) would be on par from a capacity perspective--10 rds each. The significance of the all-minor scoring and 10 rd limit in Production completely escaped me. Thanks for your patience.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[smokshwn]

I brought this thread up to see the differences in attitude betwixt the USPSA crowd and IMGA crowd. It seems most of the responses are from the USPSA crowd. Even, though some of them shoot the IMGA or "outlaw" matches. I had hoped the people who said it is bad when the gun goes down, but our rules say 'so sorry, charlie', would have at least considered the other side of the coin and how it would be if they could benefit from such a thing. I have seen on several occasions in "outlaw" matches (read IMGA) where the ROs allowed the shooter to repair the malfunction and shoot the stage for score. I heard on numerous occasions that those ROs would say they were "shooter friendly". I kinda liked that. I do know that there is a very real difference in attitude on the part of the entire match staff at the IMGA matches.

the fellow that quoted several rule numbers was obviously quoting the USPSA rule book. Most, if not all, of the IMGA matches have fairly simple rules and they do draw quite the crowd. Scoring at these matches is quite simple also. No major, minor, or whatever. If it makes a hole in paper and knocks down the steel, it must be doing what it is supposed to.

I think the sport is about the shooters and it should be shooter friendly.

I will say this, though; even those who disagree with me are good people and I enjoy their company when we shoot together. (perhaps with the exception of that guy from Arizona who talks with an English accent just to pick up the chicks.) eh, Mikey?

Please correct me if Im wrong, Im pretty new also.

The only people you'll be at a round count disadvantage to are the MINOR shooters. Unless they shoot all A's, I dont think you'll be at much of a disadvantage because they'll be down more points for B and C hits right ? All the .40 and .45 guys are shooting 8rd mags in Single Stack.

edit - But if you arent shooting a 1911 style, you cant shoot single stack. What gun are you thinking of using ?

Round count is limited to 10 in both production and L10 so there would be no round count disadvantage whatsoever in either division.

In Production everyone (regardless of caliber) is scored minor. In L10 .45 can be scored major so it will be on par there as well.

Yup, but he mentioned 8rd Limit in Single stack like it was a bad to be down 2rds to the Minor guys.

Too many variables until we find out what gun he's talking about. If its a Single stack but not a JMB/1911 type he cant shoot SS anyways.

In the OP's original question he inquired about Limited 10 division shooting a 10 round gun. I was clarifying that either in Production or Limited 10 he would not be at a round count disadvantage.

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry about the omission folks, it's a P220 (Stainless Elite) and it's on the production gun list. I edited my first post several times and didn't retain that info.

No, the 3/16" won't matter because it's the magazine length that's the problem (if I went with 10 rd mag). So, it would have to be an 8-rd mag in Production or a 10-rd in L-10 as the viable options, and it looks like what folks are suggesting is that I might do better in Production, even though my 9 and 10mm pals would have 2 extra rnds per mag there.

I think what I was really looking to verify was that L-10 would be the Division where all major shooters (.40 and .45) would be on par from a capacity perspective--10 rds each. The significance of the all-minor scoring and 10 rd limit in Production completely escaped me. Thanks for your patience.

With a 220 and ten round mags, I'd recommend L-10. With a 220 and 8 round mags, I'd recommend getting some reliable ten rounders and playing in L-10. If you're dead set on shooting in production with eight rounders, you'd probably be a good fit in revolver division.... :D

[A62335]

Shoot in L10. Those 2 rounds would make a big difference in Production.

[Flexmoney]

Limited-10 is where I'd play. I run in L-10 with mostly 8 round mags, and just one 10-rounder.

L-10

8 Maximum magazine length

5.561” (141.25mm) or

6.742”

(171.25mm) in single stack guns

[BDCooper]

I run in Lim 10 with a G21 SF. My .45 reloads are soft shooting, even though they chrono'd minor... HA!

[sslav]

Overall, based on my limited IDPA shooting, I think I'm so far away from the gun being a limiting factor that so long as I'm on par with number of reloads, I'll have nothing I can blame on gear and can just focus on doing the basics reasonably smoothly.

Number of Reloads. Max stage count for USPSA is IIRC 32. For production and L-10 that means 4 mags, even with a Barney round. Same for Single Stack. I've found myself having fun planning my reloads (SS). Revolver friendly stages are great as I have several 7 round mags. That gives me a full mag plus one in the chamber, then reload.

Leam

I have found this not to be the case often enough. I do not always get away with 4 mags in SS. With 10+1 in the gun going from an array of 2 to an array of 3 or the other way around(which happens quite a bit), you have an option to reload or you can reload going to the next array whatever that may be. With 8 rounds you have to reload or you are going to be doing a standing reload. Consequently you may be forced to do extra reloads compared to 10 round guns. I carry 4 mags on my production belt plus one in the gun and I can't think of a time when I had to use the 4th mag off the belt. I have 5 mags on my SS belt and I have gotten to the 5th on long stages.

[steel1212]

When I go places that run twice I Shoot Single Stack and Limited 10 with my Single stack in .40 and still just shoot 8+1. It basically give me 10 stages of practice for major matches. You don't change anything. If I had a 220 I would still shoot it in L10.

[John Z Sr]

.45's in moonclips in a S&W 625 and shoot revolver division, it's the most fun, in my humble opinion

[gordonm1]

I shoot my 90's 220 in L10. I have five sig 10rd mags. I wish for a heavier gun with bigger magwell opening. I've been shopping looking at the X-5 L1 in .40 and 12 round mags.

I don't shoot my XD 45 well enough to benefit much from it's hi-cap configuration but I sure like the big magwell.

Gordonm1