Discussion on gun cleaning

[ima45dv8]

I am so enamored with what a precise, tight instrument it is that my compulsion has returned. I might be able to go two matches but then I start getting the DTs. I have never seen how long I could go with it before there was a filth related issue and there are plenty of testimonials here that suggest that the value of regular cleaning has no empirical support. I just gotta let go..... or not.

Damn. There should be a 12-Step program for that.

Best of luck with your recovery.

[G-ManBart]

If a gun won't run dirty, I get rid of it.

YMMV...

Yep, I feel the same way. You're probably right about the military/familiarity aspect. If a recruit is going to field strip the weapon, he/she might as well clean it at the same time, and as Duane said, military guns get far dirtier than what we normally experience.

I pulled out the round count log I'm keeping and my MC Open gun has gone 767 rounds since it's last cleaning. It went 832 before that. The one before than was only 250 rounds, but it was cleaned because we had a dust storm blow in during the match and there was grit all in the gun and lube...that's the sort of situation where a good cleaning is definitely in order. R,

[ima45dv8]

Good point. If my local climate was blowing what amounts to valve grinding compond into my guns, they'd get cleaned a helluva lot more often.

In fact, I actually brought a bore snake to Vegas and pulled it through my Brazos gun a few times, along with a field strip, wipe, and re-lube.

I sometimes forget how lucky I am not having to deal with that. Ugh.

[rvb]

I have a beretta 92FS that has a couple of times gone approximately 20 thousand rounds without ANY cleaning. Just a couple drops of lube on the locking block from the top of the slide and away off we'd go...

I WAS very anal until I realized that by going through a couple bucks worth of patches and lube and solvent often 2 times per week (not to mention replacing things like bore snakes, brushes, etc), I would spend as much on cleaning crap in 2-3 years as buying a new gun (when I was shooting production). Since I hated cleaning I said screw it, if sporadic cleaning creates a problem I'll buy a new gun. Never seemed to create a problem.

I'm a little more careful w/ my open gun.... very lightly clean the bore every 5k or so when I detail strip the gun, and field clean it every 1k-2k. A few weeks ago while re-zeroing and collecting some hold-over data I shot a 4 to 5" group at 75 yds off hand (didn't have a measure handy to know exactly). So I don't think my practice is hurting anything (gun has approx 20k on it).

-rvb

[al503]

Top end and the rails every 400-600 rounds and a complete detail at every ~5K. One thing about cleaning it this 'often' is that you can check for signs of wear/tear while you're at it.

[lucasb67]

in my opinion religious gun cleaning preserv duration, reliability and precision ... for exemple, try to count failures of cleaning men and no cleaning men ... in italy is "clear"!!

Edited January 9, 2010 by lucasb67

[Jim Norman]

I used to clean every time and I mean EVERY time I shot. Started as a kid shooting smallbore. shoot 30 rounds, come home, clean. Dad was a Marine. I now clean a few times a year. I virtually never clean a barrel, maybe a wet patch (FP-10 or maybe M-Pro) the action is a different story. that gets cleaned when it starts to look like it should. Not every time, but every couple thousand rounds. I have shot to failure although if you keep the gun wet enough that doesn't seem to occur very often.

I seriously believe that the clean it every time mentality comes from two things; One, we used to have highly corrosive primers and powders and not cleaning was a sure fire way to ruin a gun. I have an OLD Mauser that shoots corrosive ammo. It gets cleaned at the range! and WOW is it dirty after even a few rounds. I mean we are talking crap that looks like I was shooting black powder! Two is the Military training issue mentioned above. What better way to train you to know where every piece goes than to have you disassemble an disassemble your weapon just about every time you handle it? Take it apart, lay out the pieces, then put it together. Do it often enough and you too can do it in the dark.

One person somewhere along the line told me and/or I read that more accurate target rifles have been ruined by cleaning than ever were by shooting. Screw up the crown just a little bit and accuracy goes to hell. Why wouldn't this be the same in a handgun barrel?

So, when it needs it, clean it, until then shoot it.

[dmshozer1]

I wasnt sure this was the best place for this thread, if not, please feel free to move where you see fit

So, I've read a few threads on here about cleaning vs not cleaning bores etc etc. (im sure some of them will be linked here later:))

I was always brought up with the mindset of always cleaning a gun before putting it away. Take care of your guns, your guns will take care of you (whoa, i just quoted my father there....). I work at a place that sells reloading and cleaning supplies-a lot of cleaning supplies to be exact. I brought up the idea to a few co-workers and also printed out that Scheumann barrel article (altho it was rather dated) about their recommendations about not cleaning barrels, etc. They were nearly as confused as I am.

I, being simple minded and altho around firearms most of my life still learning new things EVERY DAY, cannot for the love of God see why NOT cleaning your barrel is better than cleaning it out with a good lead/copper/moly/powder residue remover (insert favorite here-Hoppe's, Shooters Choice, Montana Extreme, Butch's Bore Shine, etc etc etc etc..... the list can go on forever).

Id like to see some opinions on the idea and especially if you are on the "nothing but bullets down the barrel" side of things. I'm not sure if im missing the boat here or what.

Thanks!!!!

C

Most of the people responding are more than likely using jacked or at least a plated type bullet.

Put lead bullets down the barrel like I do and trust me, you will be cleaning the gun and barrel!

I have tried all the known good barrels. Using all the known good lead bullets, they ALL leave

lead in the barrel that does not come out unless you brush the hell out of them!

Tried the put some jacked bullets down the bore after shooting lead. looked good! Checked it with

my friend's $900 dollar borescope. Lead was still in the barrel!

I will admit that the accuracy is still good with lead left in the barrel, but I worry about pressure

build up.

That's my story and I'am sticking to it!

[dmshozer1]

The truth is most of the modern thought about gun cleaning is based on what we did way back when....black powder and corrosive primers. Sure, back then you had to clean a gun to keep it reliable and to prevent rusting. With modern powders, primers and jacketed bullets, cleaning every use isn't necessary.

In fact, a squeakly clean gun can be less reliable than one that's in a reasonable state of fouling. How can that be? Well, if the gun is working properly when you stop shooting, the odds are incredibly high that it's going to go bang the next time you press the trigger. If you've taken the gun apart, cleaned it, and put it back together you have an unknown staring back at you. It'll probably go bang, but it might not. Yes, a function check is a good idea, but it's not foolproof. This is even more true if you've detail stripped the gun.....you sure you got that sear spring on there perfectly and the tension on the legs is still what it's supposed to be???? No way of knowing until you press the trigger for the first time.

For practical reasons I clean my duty/carry gun after I shoot it because I don't want to get my dress shirts and suits dirty. I have another duty gun that I normally only use at the range, for instructing, and it's been cleaned exactly once....after the first time I shot it, new out of the box.

If it makes you feel good...knock yourself out and clean your guns all the time. Just know that any advantage you think you're gaining is offset by an equal disadvantage (no free lunch). Personally, I won't take a gun to a major match that hasn't had at least a couple of mags run through it after a cleaning. R,

Because I clean my gun's often,I have avoided future problems by seeing worn or about to break parts.

I have also after shooting a match, taken the gun apart to find out that a part

had in fact, broken. Bummer way to start the first stage at the next match!

[G-ManBart]

Because I clean my gun's often,I have avoided future problems by seeing worn or about to break parts.

I have also after shooting a match, taken the gun apart to find out that a part

had in fact, broken. Bummer way to start the first stage at the next match!

You do realize that those two statements are entirely contradictory don't you? Your premise is that cleaning often prevents future problems by finding worn or about to break parts. Then you say you've taken a gun apart after a match to find a broken part.

Why didn't you find that broken, or about to break, part when you cleaned it before the match? Because, no offense, your theory doesn't work well.

Yes, it's possible to spot a worn part or obviously ready to break part when cleaning. Does that happen often? Not really. Yes, it's possible for a gun to break while you're shooting and you don't know it (couldn't have been a major part or the gun would have stopped). Does that happen often? Not really.

My highest round count USPSA gun is an Open gun with well over 100K on it (it's now retired). I can every problem that gun had....the first slide cracked at about 65K opposite the ejection port, the mag release wore out (did lots of dry fire reloads), the comp developed a crack on one of the baffles (welded) and the dust cover cracked (added a flat plate and welded). None of the "moving parts" ever caused a problem.

Oh wait, yeah there was the one time when I did a detail strip the day before a match. The trigger on that gun is very, very light....it's an honest under 2lbs. I guess I wasn't careful enough with the sear spring during reassembly and tweaked it a tiny bit. First stage of Tuesday Night Steel at Rio and I was about ten shots in when the gun went into burst mode. After that I cleaned as little as possible, and I was actually shooting lead bullets. Sometimes I'd clean the barrel and leave the rest of the gun the way it was....the only time I remember that gun jamming was a bad piece of brass that hooked on the extractor....literally curved brass hooked onto it.

[dmshozer1]

G-Man,

Sorry, I should have reviewed my response to you. I would change it to say, I have avoided most of the potential problems.

You do whatever you want.

I will continue to clean and maintain my guns. It has worked for me for the last 15 years.

Take care.

[G-ManBart]

G-Man,

Sorry, I should have reviewed my response to you. I would change it to say, I have avoided most of the potential problems.

You do whatever you want.

I will continue to clean and maintain my guns. It has worked for me for the last 15 years.

Take care.

Of course we'll all do whatever we want, I'm just pointing out that the thing that you, and others, say cleaning guns will sovle doesn't really work out that way. Based off your comments it certainly hasn't worked that way for you.

I'd also submit that someone claiming to have avoided all manner or problems by identification during cleaning might consider buying better guns or better parts. Looking at a part and thinking it's "going to break" is silly. Except in extreme cases, where it's already started failing, this simply isn't an accurate indication of impending failure. Worn, seriously worn, parts can continue to work for tens of thousands of rounds, but that brand new part you replace it with can break immediately. I've been shooting guns since just a little bit shorter than I could walk and I haven't had that many parts break, and the vast majority didn't stop the gun, or were visible without needing to clean the gun or disassemble it. Not real hard to spot a cracked safety or cracked slide.

I clean my guns when they need it and I maintain them as needed. I also normally have the most reliable guns at any match or club...without question. Ask the people who shoot with me when I've had guns malfunction. Last time I asked that question to a large group, someone said "a year ago you had that magazine problem at a match"....yep, and it wasn't a gun problem, and they had to go back a year to remember a problem!

Guns simply don't "need" to be cleaned as often as people think they do. Proof is your statements above. I don't clean my guns all the time and have never had the problems you've had when cleaning yours more frequently. That's sort of interesting all by itself. Now, some could say all that cleaning could have led to more failures with yours, but I won't go that far.

I have one pistol I've been shooting since 1983 and was one of the first guns I shot in USPSA....hard to imagine this problem wouldn't have cropped up on me with that gun in the last 27 years if I was totally off base.

Edited January 10, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Duane Thomas]

Put lead bullets down the barrel like I do and trust me, you will be cleaning the gun and barrel!

I once put almost 5,000 rounds of LSWC handloads through my Wilson .45, without cleaning and without malfunctions. Of course, it helped that I was using Laser-Cast bullets which are harder than the hinges of Hell, Titegroup powder which in my experience is very clean burning, and lubing the gun with Slide-Glide which doesn't, when mixed with powder fouling, form that sticky, thick crud we're used to seeing with conventional lubricants. Really the only reason I finally broke down and cleaned the gun was that I had it apart to change the recoil spring and I said, "Oh well, as long as it's apart anyway...." But the point is, I didn't need to clean it; the gun was still smooth. And when I looked down the barrel after almost 5,000 rounds of lead bullet handloads, not only was it not heavily leaded, the lands and grooves were so clean they looked polished.

Laser-Cast = good stuff.

[twodownzero]

I've been shooting whatever lead bullets I could get my hands on since I got my press and not had a problem.

[HotIce]

I clean after each outing. Just can't leave dirty firearms, it's stronger than me.

Nothing major on the bore. Just some Kroil with few tight patches and a few strokes with a nylon brush.

I just started shooting lead though, so I dunno if that will require some extra work on the bore.

[dmshozer1]

G-Man,

Sorry, I should have reviewed my response to you. I would change it to say, I have avoided most of the potential problems.

You do whatever you want.

I will continue to clean and maintain my guns. It has worked for me for the last 15 years.

Take care.

Of course we'll all do whatever we want, I'm just pointing out that the thing that you, and others, say cleaning guns will sovle doesn't really work out that way. Based off your comments it certainly hasn't worked that way for you.

I'd also submit that someone claiming to have avoided all manner or problems by identification during cleaning might consider buying better guns or better parts. Looking at a part and thinking it's "going to break" is silly. Except in extreme cases, where it's already started failing, this simply isn't an accurate indication of impending failure. Worn, seriously worn, parts can continue to work for tens of thousands of rounds, but that brand new part you replace it with can break immediately. I've been shooting guns since just a little bit shorter than I could walk and I haven't had that many parts break, and the vast majority didn't stop the gun, or were visible without needing to clean the gun or disassemble it. Not real hard to spot a cracked safety or cracked slide.

I clean my guns when they need it and I maintain them as needed. I also normally have the most reliable guns at any match or club...without question. Ask the people who shoot with me when I've had guns malfunction. Last time I asked that question to a large group, someone said "a year ago you had that magazine problem at a match"....yep, and it wasn't a gun problem, and they had to go back a year to remember a problem!

Guns simply don't "need" to be cleaned as often as people think they do. Proof is your statements above. I don't clean my guns all the time and have never had the problems you've had when cleaning yours more frequently. That's sort of interesting all by itself. Now, some could say all that cleaning could have led to more failures with yours, but I won't go that far.

I have one pistol I've been shooting since 1983 and was one of the first guns I shot in USPSA....hard to imagine this problem wouldn't have cropped up on me with that gun in the last 27 years if I was totally off base.

G-Man, Chill out! I have my opinion,you have yours.

Nuff said,

[SCV]

I clean ever use. I dont care if its 2 rounds or 500. The only exception's are if I plan on shooting it again the next day it wont get cleaned. Oh and my hunting rifle! It gets cleaned after hunting season is over...

The way I see it to each his own,but cleaning a wepon wont hurt it....

[G-ManBart]

G-Man, Chill out! I have my opinion,you have yours.

Nuff said,

No need to chill out as I'm not upset and haven't even remotely said anything indicating such

Of course we all have opinions, but, come to think of it.....I wasn't talking about opinions at all; I was only talking about the facts that you brought to the table. They simply don't suppport the conclusion you said they did. If you don't want to believe or trust your own experiences and convince yourself they're telling you something that they're not....that's entirely your choice.

For anybody else reading this thread: if you can shoot a hole in this, I'd love to hear it....so far the only real constant amongst the folks that clean guns frequently is that it makes them feel better or happier....feelings, not facts.

If clean guns are more reliable, is your match gun less reliable on the tenth stage of a big match than it was on the first? If so, you'd better start cleaning between stages

Edited January 11, 2010 by G-ManBart

[North]

I clean my guns every so often, no schedule. I do shoot Moly coated bullets that do lead my barrel a bit, so every once in a while I clean my pistol. Usually I clean my pistol when I want too, it is therapeutic for me. I don't feel the need to clean after every range session, but I do clean more than some are posting about.

Edited January 11, 2010 by North

[al503]

For anybody else reading this thread: if you can shoot a hole in this, I'd love to hear it....so far the only real constant amongst the folks that clean guns frequently is that it makes them feel better or happier....feelings, not facts.

My cleaning regimen (above in this thread) is based on several factors. First and foremost, its what my smith recommends and based on his reputation as a smith and that he is a GM, I have no reason to doubt him. Second, I don't like the idea of having a lot of gunk (carbon, powder residue, etc.) between the rails. It probably doesn't matter one bit on a pistol with looser tolerances but I want to keep the slide to frame fit as tight as possible for as long as possible. The less gunk you have between them along with the lube, the better, IMO.

If clean guns are more reliable, is your match gun less reliable on the tenth stage of a big match than it was on the first? If so, you'd better start cleaning between stages

Depends on how dirty the dirty gun would be. I'd rather have a clean gun at the start of a long match v. a dirty one that may or may not be approaching the level of dirt that will affect its function. As for cleaning the gun between stages, your point is well-taken. I guess it's like the people who change their oil every 3/3 v. what the owner's manual says v. those who don't do anything until the oil light comes on. The argument against the 3/3 is that the reduced wear and tear on the internals don't make up for the additional costs with the frequency unless you're planning on keeping the car for a very long time. However, the benefits are there, however small they may be.

[Corey]

I get free oil changes so that really doesnt apply to me

Thanks for all the input. I think im gonna keep cleaning my guns as i will just feel weird if i leave them, hah. However I may pay closer attention to the bore and not give it the extra scrubbing and cleaning i usually do. maybe a few patches with a good cleaner will be enough for me.

[Jeff686]

You also have to take into account that in a military/field environment the gun gets MUCH dirtier, much faster than even the most fanatical match shooter could possibly inflict on the poor thing. For a solider in the field, regular cleaning is probably mandatory to keep the darn thing running at all. For our guns, in the environments in which we use them....not so much.

I agree. Remember the 'new black rifle' that doesn't need cleaned? I heard they didn't even issue cleaning kits with them. Is that true? Of course, I'm not sure if the cleaning kits and comic books, or the chrome chambers/barrels really fixed the problem...

The obsessive cleaning regime of the military is probably based in real world lessons.

[Youngeyes]

My guns are a part of me. If I use a part of me for anything I clean it. 'Nuff said.

[G-ManBart]

For anybody else reading this thread: if you can shoot a hole in this, I'd love to hear it....so far the only real constant amongst the folks that clean guns frequently is that it makes them feel better or happier....feelings, not facts.

My cleaning regimen (above in this thread) is based on several factors. First and foremost, its what my smith recommends and based on his reputation as a smith and that he is a GM, I have no reason to doubt him. Second, I don't like the idea of having a lot of gunk (carbon, powder residue, etc.) between the rails. It probably doesn't matter one bit on a pistol with looser tolerances but I want to keep the slide to frame fit as tight as possible for as long as possible. The less gunk you have between them along with the lube, the better, IMO.

I doubt that the fit on your guns is any tighter than the fit on my guns and it makes zero difference to mine....I've run all of them to a couple thousand rounds between cleanings and never had failures. Also, that "gunk" is generally powder fouling. I've seen more than one gunpowder expert say that residue from burned gunpowder has a lubricating quality when mixed with normal oil/grease. None of that applies for folks in really dusty environments because then you really are getting grit in the lube, and that's bad. Normal burned powder, cooked oil etc....none of that is going to slow things down or cause wear.

If clean guns are more reliable, is your match gun less reliable on the tenth stage of a big match than it was on the first? If so, you'd better start cleaning between stages

Depends on how dirty the dirty gun would be. I'd rather have a clean gun at the start of a long match v. a dirty one that may or may not be approaching the level of dirt that will affect its function. As for cleaning the gun between stages, your point is well-taken. I guess it's like the people who change their oil every 3/3 v. what the owner's manual says v. those who don't do anything until the oil light comes on. The argument against the 3/3 is that the reduced wear and tear on the internals don't make up for the additional costs with the frequency unless you're planning on keeping the car for a very long time. However, the benefits are there, however small they may be.

I clean my guns before big matches (Nationals/Area/Sectionals), but then I run 50-100 rounds through them so I know everything is working properly and nothing got messed up when they were taken apart. That's a lot different from the "clean is better" concept. Since I know I can easily go 1K without any problems I could really go the 50-100 to function check, and then two entire nationals and not even be remotely close to where the gun could start having a problem. Thing is, I'm working off a known....I know I can go to a certain round count (and probably beyond) without having a problem. The folks that clean their gun every time really don't have any idea how clean their gun every time don't know that.

It's also not an absolute for me, in any way. Two years ago I got soaked at Nationals (didn't we all?) so after the first night I sat in the hotel and cleaned my gun. I'm sure it would have continued to work, but water, Slide Glide, powder residue...ick. Not only that, but it's in the white and rust started in a couple of spots...again, ick.

I've even decided to let a gun go way longer and just see what happened. After about 3,500 rounds I finally cleaned it because it was just caked in gunk...but it was running fine (STI Limited gun, not a Glock or other duty style gun).

I'm just not seeing anybody come up with evidence or proof in this thread...it's all "I think, or I feel, or it's what somebody told me 35 years ago". If those same folks ran their gun until it started puking they might actually have some sort of facts or data and really know where they stand.

Edited January 12, 2010 by G-ManBart

[TMC]

Brake Cleaner, Compressed Air, Lube ...... whew! and I'm spent

My cleaning regime exactly but only now and then or before a big match not after every shooting session. For the local matches I just put a big more oil on the rails and barrel hood and wipe off the old oil leaking out.

I completely disassemble the guns once a year to get the gunk out of the fire contol area just to make me feel better.