Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 German? The only number they ever say is nine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Like Singlestack I watch the timer for the last shot. I normally put it near the center of the shooters back so a spent piece of brass can't hit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... That is what I said. [devil's advocate hat on] How do you reconcile that with the rule book? You might want to crack that rule book open! You gotta do the leg work to play Devil's Advocate. How do you even justify using a timer ?!?!? I don't even think you will find the mention of a timer in the book...except under the definition of Quarter Master. (9.10 covers "Official Time") I've got a stop watch on my Timex. Hah! 9.10.3 Does your Timex record shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... That is what I said. [devil's advocate hat on] How do you reconcile that with the rule book? You might want to crack that rule book open! You gotta do the leg work to play Devil's Advocate. How do you even justify using a timer ?!?!? I don't even think you will find the mention of a timer in the book...except under the definition of Quarter Master. (9.10 covers "Official Time") I've got a stop watch on my Timex. Hah! 9.10.3 Does your Timex record shots Your 9.10.3 must be in a different rule book because in mine that is about a shooter who reacts to the start signal but doesn't fire a shot. In my book the only time that a timer appears to be indicated is in 9.4.6.2 where the timing device indicates an overtime shot. For a regular COF the indicating device/watch/timer starts with an audible signal (start/go) the problem is with the indicating device knowing when the last shot is fired (press button). For all of the posters that are watching the timer when the last shot is fired, how do you know it is going to be the last shot? All this time I've been watching the shooter for safe gun handling and relying on the timer to pick up the last shot. So the conscience is that because the shooter is at or near the end of the COF I should stop watching them and start watching the timer. I really want to know because my recert is due soon and I had planned to work the Nationals again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 So the conscience is that because the shooter is at or near the end of the COF I should stop watching them and start watching the timer. I really want to know because my recert is due soon and I had planned to work the Nationals again. Did you mean consensus? I watch the timer in my peripheral vision, while keeping an eye on the shooter. I'm looking for movement in the digits, as the last shot breaks. With a little practice, it's pretty easy to put the timer where that works and doesn't interfere with seeing the shooter. It's not an either/or situation --- and it's not absolute either. If the shooter falls on his way into the last position, I'm likely to be watching him closely --- and might miss verifying if a final shot activated the timer..... The Nationals have had really good staff. Nationals staff aren't the only good ROs in USPSA though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Sorry rules don't permit using the time to count shots. I got to do that in my head, what I count in my head is the correct number no matter what the timer says. Which rule do you want to quote for counting shots in your head? Sorry Flex I don't seem to have that one in my head at the moment. Vogel manned up and reshot, I've met him a time or two seems like a nice guy. Both times his para had neausa and was upchucking. Bob Vogel a very nice guy. He shoots a Glock though, not a Para. You might be confusing him with Todd Jarrett ? Yes you got me this time I have my Voit and Vogel confused. I was speaking of the USPSA President. And same goes for MR. Vogel, he manned up and re-shot. It is really tiring these shooters that have a bad run and then waste everyones time crying like a little girl to get a re-shoot, so Mr. Vogel having a great run acted like a very good sport and re-shot, I'll put him on my good guy list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means..... That is what I said. [devil's advocate hat on] How do you reconcile that with the rule book? You might want to crack that rule book open! You gotta do the leg work to play Devil's Advocate. How do you even justify using a timer ?!?!? I don't even think you will find the mention of a timer in the book...except under the definition of Quarter Master. (9.10 covers "Official Time") I've got a stop watch on my Timex. Hah! 9.10.3 Does your Timex record shots Your 9.10.3 must be in a different rule book because in mine that is about a shooter who reacts to the start signal but doesn't fire a shot. In my book the only time that a timer appears to be indicated is in 9.4.6.2 where the timing device indicates an overtime shot. For a regular COF the indicating device/watch/timer starts with an audible signal (start/go) the problem is with the indicating device knowing when the last shot is fired (press button). For all of the posters that are watching the timer when the last shot is fired, how do you know it is going to be the last shot? All this time I've been watching the shooter for safe gun handling and relying on the timer to pick up the last shot. So the conscience is that because the shooter is at or near the end of the COF I should stop watching them and start watching the timer. I really want to know because my recert is due soon and I had planned to work the Nationals again. The reason I referenced 9.10.3 is it talks about an official time being recorded. Timex watches can't record a time. Like Nik, I watch the timer in my peripheral vision, while keeping an eye on the shooter. I'm looking for movement in the digits, as the last shot breaks. With a little practice, it's pretty easy to put the timer where that works and doesn't interfere with seeing the shooter. It's not an either/or situation --- and it's not absolute either. If the shooter falls on his way into the last position, I'm likely to be watching him closely --- and might miss verifying if a final shot activated the timer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 It all comes down to common sence and the RO's interpretation of the rules, shooters abilities and COF specific issues. Timers are not 100% reliable and I am sure that many shooters have benifited and been screwed by those little buggers. As I see it, the "human factor" plays a huge part in our sport and "it is what it is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 This is a little off topic but why not have the Timer Manufactures put an LED on the case of the timer that blinks every time a shot is recorded? That would be a LOT easier for an RO to observe in their peripheral vision to ensure that the timer is counting the shots. It would also allow the RO to stay focus on their primary job of watching the gun/shooter to ensure that everything is safe. Just an idea…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 As an RO I am to have an accurate time. So I know the last shot registered as I watched it change while the last shot was fired. Another shooter who saw the run disputes the time. The timer only shows 30 shots instead of 32 and I know all the shots were fired and I know I caught the last one. Can the dispute be arbitrated and can it be won in arbitration since all the shots did not register on the timer?Seems like this could lead to possibly a large number of reshoots. Coach, That is a straw man argument, really. We can't apply an absolute answer to a question with obvious variables. I might ask how you know you caught the last shot? But, if you know you caught it, then you caught it. (I'd be figuring out which ones you didn't catch, and why. Are you missing shots behind a wall? Is the battery going bad? Echo cancelling shots out ? ) We all want to give the shooter an accurate time, I am sure. Yes I agree we all want an accurate time. I can usually (not always) see the timer and the gun at the same time at the point I am expecting the last shot to come. I usually do not worry about catching all of the shots on the timer, staying back out of the way of the shooter, not keeping the timer extend, ports, wall, barrles and so forth. As long as I know I was there and the last shot registered I have an accurate time for the stage. I seem to recall in RO class that I was not to look at the timer as a shot counter. Then reading the article I saw this a possible a huge can of worms being opened. The consensus here seems to be that there is no direct rule in the book to addess this and use some common sense in determining if a time is valid or not. I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Most of the time when shots are not being counted its due to the RO’s not following the shooter through the COF close enough, or the shot timer has its sensitivity set incorrectly. In the case of the original post of this thread I would bet that the RO allowed the shooter to leave him in the dust as he was hauling ass through the stage and was too far away to pick up the last few shots. This seems to be the usual failure mode of not picking up shots with the timer. Furthermore, if the RO is so far away that the shot timer can’t pick up the shots, how effective can they really be from a safety observation/enforcement standpoint? That to me is the most important factor in keeping pace with the shooter through a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 The reason I referenced 9.10.3 is it talks about an official time being recorded. Timex watches can't record a time. They can record a zero ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Hey all... I caused most of the dust up here. I just hate to keep hearing the absolute statement that the timer cannot count shots. I think what some fear is that there might be arguments made that have shooters reshooting when they don't to deserve to (be that bad or good for their score). I don't think that there ought to be a reshoot on a 32 round cof based on the timer only registering 28 shots. The key being if the timer caught the "last shot" or not. I think people have taken that to the extreme, however. They use that as reasoning that the timer "is not a shot counter"...in any circumstance. But, it is. It records shots. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. It's a tool. Review the data, if need be, and...if it proves reliable...then use it. It's not unlike the instant replay in football... The replay may or may not be conclusive. If it is, use it. If not, then don't. (Yes, I realize that we don't have video replay in our game. Then again, we don't have 18 angles of HD and professional camera crews with decades of experience. Not the point. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot..... In all reality, what good would this do? I can't see any place where it would help, you start with 11 in the gun. I know you can only have 10 rounds in the mag for production and if you shoot more you go to open, but the vibration at 10 rounds assumes that you shoot 10 rounds every time before you reload. Am I missing something? Tom Nik, I had to double check...but my Pact Mk-IV does have that functionality. FWIW Keyed Beeps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Allen Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) . Edited January 8, 2010 by Woody Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hey all...I caused most of the dust up here. I just hate to keep hearing the absolute statement that the timer cannot count shots. I think what some fear is that there might be arguments made that have shooters reshooting when they don't to deserve to (be that bad or good for their score). I don't think that there ought to be a reshoot on a 32 round cof based on the timer only registering 28 shots. The key being if the timer caught the "last shot" or not. I think people have taken that to the extreme, however. They use that as reasoning that the timer "is not a shot counter"...in any circumstance. But, it is. It records shots. No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. It's a tool. Review the data, if need be, and...if it proves reliable...then use it. It's not unlike the instant replay in football... The replay may or may not be conclusive. If it is, use it. If not, then don't. (Yes, I realize that we don't have video replay in our game. Then again, we don't have 18 angles of HD and professional camera crews with decades of experience. Not the point. ) +1. I absolutely hate statements that rely on the concepts "always" or "never," especially when governing behavior or determining whether or not something's good or bad. Things are rarely that black or white; things often require continued thought in the elusive pursuit of best practices.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot..... In all reality, what good would this do? I can't see any place where it would help, you start with 11 in the gun. I know you can only have 10 rounds in the mag for production and if you shoot more you go to open, but the vibration at 10 rounds assumes that you shoot 10 rounds every time before you reload. Am I missing something? Tom Nik, I had to double check...but my Pact Mk-IV does have that functionality. FWIW Keyed Beeps. Only a former Pact Dealer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Only a former Pact Dealer..... LOL...I have all that info locked away safely in my brain pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Only a former Pact Dealer..... LOL...I have all that info locked away safely in my brain pan. Right up until Jen forgets to run systems checks on ya..... ...or until your battery hits 10%..... :roflol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 So the conscience is that because the shooter is at or near the end of the COF I should stop watching them and start watching the timer. I really want to know because my recert is due soon and I had planned to work the Nationals again. Did you mean consensus? I watch the timer in my peripheral vision, while keeping an eye on the shooter. I'm looking for movement in the digits, as the last shot breaks. With a little practice, it's pretty easy to put the timer where that works and doesn't interfere with seeing the shooter. It's not an either/or situation --- and it's not absolute either. If the shooter falls on his way into the last position, I'm likely to be watching him closely --- and might miss verifying if a final shot activated the timer..... The Nationals have had really good staff. Nationals staff aren't the only good ROs in USPSA though...... My bad, I ran a spelling check but I guess I had it too badly misspelled. To each his/her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 So the conscience is that because the shooter is at or near the end of the COF I should stop watching them and start watching the timer. I really want to know because my recert is due soon and I had planned to work the Nationals again. Did you mean consensus? I watch the timer in my peripheral vision, while keeping an eye on the shooter. I'm looking for movement in the digits, as the last shot breaks. With a little practice, it's pretty easy to put the timer where that works and doesn't interfere with seeing the shooter. It's not an either/or situation --- and it's not absolute either. If the shooter falls on his way into the last position, I'm likely to be watching him closely --- and might miss verifying if a final shot activated the timer..... The Nationals have had really good staff. Nationals staff aren't the only good ROs in USPSA though...... My bad, I ran a spelling check but I guess I had it too badly misspelled. To each his/her own. I thought there might have been a science fiction geek joke in there somewhere about a group mind like the borg, but I wasn't sure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Sorry rules don't permit using the time to count shots. I got to do that in my head, what I count in my head is the correct number no matter what the timer says. Which rule do you want to quote for counting shots in your head? Sorry Flex I don't seem to have that one in my head at the moment. Vogel manned up and reshot, I've met him a time or two seems like a nice guy. Both times his para had neausa and was upchucking. Bob Vogel a very nice guy. He shoots a Glock though, not a Para. You might be confusing him with Todd Jarrett ? Yes you got me this time I have my Voit and Vogel confused. I was speaking of the USPSA President. And same goes for MR. Vogel, he manned up and re-shot. It is really tiring these shooters that have a bad run and then waste everyones time crying like a little girl to get a re-shoot, so Mr. Vogel having a great run acted like a very good sport and re-shot, I'll put him on my good guy list. Bob Vogel is going to take a reshoot ANYTIME and for ANY reason. He always thinks he can do it better. And most of the time, he's right. I heard him give that advice to another younger guy he had brought to a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Man, clearly you have little experience with German ROs ---- we learned to count without using our fingers and toes.... :roflol: But you don't do comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Man, clearly you have little experience with German ROs ---- we learned to count without using our fingers and toes.... :roflol: But you don't do comedy. We make pretty good straight men..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 We had this issue come up a few years ago at our club match. The RO was using my timer (a pocket proII, which had just came out), I was the shooter. At the end of a bad run, the RO and Scorekeeper were talking about how many penalties to give me for something that had went bad and then started looking at the timer to try to figure out how many shots were fired. The RO asked me how to review the shots, and I told him to mash the button on the side ( I must have been confused) and when he did, the timer beeped and reset . And because they had not recorded the time and couldn't remember it, I got a reshoot. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now