Both Feet in the Air Fault line Question

[Chills1994]

Well.... .... I think you guys have a pretty good handle on 10.2.1

[Alan Adamson]

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

I'm not 100% sure, but even with the stage description saying "in the shooting box", I still believe the above would apply, and as stipulated requires an object (ground or other) to be touched *outside* the shooting box or fault line for it to be a penalty...

Alan

Edited December 18, 2009 by Alan Adamson

[mactiger]

Can't have it both ways, and the rules clearly spell out what constitutes a fault. Shooting while in the air is the epitome of "freestyle" IMO, and it's perfectly legal per the rules. When you start adding statements like: "keep both feet on the ground", you not only contravene the spirit of the sport, you contradict the rule book. And that, my friend, IS chopped liver.

Troy

I haven't seen the written course description...so I dunno...

I'm just a speck-u-latin' here, that if the CoF description says, "From within Box A...blah...blah..."

And you aren't within Box A when you're shootin', then that's a procedural.

Now if you want to quibble about the definition of "within"...well...ya might as well wag your finger at the camera and ask what the definition of "is" is...

All you gamers are gonna make me start writing CoF descriptions like, "Start with your toes on the X's, hands naturally at sides, at the start signal, while keeping your toes on the X's, engage T1, T2 and PP1, then move to ....."

ETA: if I gotta spell stuff out that much...well...that's like another shooting sport I know...besides that, it kinda kills the freestyle spirit/intent of USPSA

[Chills1994]

I'm NOT debating whether the rulebook describes what a foot fault is or is NOT.

What I am merely suggesting is that whatever the CoF description dictates can or will supercede 10.2.1 's definition of foot fault

...or possibly whatever else could lead to a procedural....like oh...I dunno... having to hold an ammo box in your weakhand in a typical "luggage carry position"...whatever that means. And yes, I do realize that that particular Nat's incident got range lawyer'ed and some people got to reshoot it.

And, yeah, to beat a deadhorse...

from dictionary.com for within:

–preposition 6. in or into the interior of or the parts or space enclosed by: within city walls.

7. inside of; in.

8. in the compass or limits of; not beyond: within view; to live within one's income.

9. at or to some point not beyond, as in length or distance; not farther than: within a radius of a mile.

10. at or to some amount or degree not exceeding: within two degrees of freezing.

11. in the course or period of, as in time: within one's memory; within three minutes.

12. inside of the limits fixed or required by; not transgressing: within the law.

13. in the field, sphere, or scope of: within the family; within one's power.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[Chris Keen]

I think we've had this discussion many times .................

"If you're not TOUCHING SOMETHING OUT OF THE BOX - you are still considered IN THE BOX (whether you are actually still in the box or not is irrelevant)"

[Chills1994]

^^^Agree'ed... unless the written stage description says something different

If you're Carl Lewis, and you can jump 10 feet out of Box A and fire off a couple of shoots midair, and the written stage description says something along the lines of "from within Box A, engage T1 through T4...."

Then, in my opinion, that action gets dinged with procedurals accordingly.

[Chills1994]

or if an MD or stage designer really wanted to be explicit with the description, he could just say, "While remaining whole-ly/completely/entirely/ within Box A, engage T1 through T4...."

[Flexmoney]

Almost all stage descriptions state something along the lines of "engage targets from within the shooting area."

Then, in my opinion, that action gets dinged with procedurals accordingly.

Opinion noted.

This ain't new.

The question boils down to what is meant by "in the box" or "within the shooting area". That question has be clarified for years now.

There is no penalty to apply until and unless a body part touches outside the fault line. I know we have threads on this around here...I've posted pictures in them.

[mlmiller1]

or if an MD or stage designer really wanted to be explicit with the description, he could just say, "While remaining whole-ly/completely/entirely/ within Box A, engage T1 through T4...."

I don't think you can actually do that nor can you officiate that. What if the muzzle of the gun is out, say forward of the box? The muzzle is part of the shooter, therefore procedurals? How can you see that? What if your butte sticks out further than the rest of you & your feet are at the back of the box? You can't do that. You also can't supercede uspsa rules or we would have a free for all, you setup whatever you want, specify your rules & then why even have uspsa rules? Every stage procedure at Level II or above matches is "approved" by uspsa meaning it follows the uspsa rules & all local matches are supposed to stay within the rules as well. Shooting is freestyle, stage procedure is not. There is a lot of latitude but you can't just make up procedures the way you want them. You are in the box until you touch the ground outside the box. If you are outside the box, you are out until something touches the ground inside the box.

Go to any major match & watch the hard to shoot position at the end of a stage. The M & GMs & some others will be shooting it while in the air, feet off the ground while leaving the shooting position. If they touch ground outside & fire a shot, procedural but otherwise, no procedural.

MLM

[LPatterson]

or if an MD or stage designer really wanted to be explicit with the description, he could just say, "While remaining whole-ly/completely/entirely/ within Box A, engage T1 through T4...."

This still wouldn't stop someone from jumping straight up in the air to make a shot. Then you start to contravene rule 1.1.5 and even 1.1.5.1 says where and when but not how targets may be engaged.

Read the rule book the way it is written until you become head of NROI then you can start offering interruptions which still have to be approved by the BOD.

[Nik Habicht]

^^^Agree'ed... unless the written stage description says something different

If you're Carl Lewis, and you can jump 10 feet out of Box A and fire off a couple of shoots midair, and the written stage description says something along the lines of "from within Box A, engage T1 through T4...."

Then, in my opinion, that action gets dinged with procedurals accordingly.

Perhaps it's time for the CRO course to correct your interpretation of the rules.....

....it's available by correspondence now....

I highly recommend it....

[Chills1994]

Nik... that's noted... but I have no intention of ever RO'ing another major match. Ever. Call it once bitten, twice shy.

Let's just keep it simple then..."with toes on X's, engage T1 through T4"

[Chills1994]

Cabin fever settin' in yet, there LPatterson?

[JThompson]

Well I sure can't find any reason for a penalty here (other than maybe on "style" points). See 10.2.1. If he started in the shooting box and has not touched anything outside of it yet he is still in it. Conversly, if he started out of the box and had not yet touched down in the box (with at least one foot - other in the air) he is out of the box. If this is a penalty then I have seen a lot of GM's incur one as they shoot a tight target around a barricade when they are trying for a fast last shot.

This would be my call as well....

JT

[Chills1994]

just to clarify things, this was the OP:

A question arose at our local match tonight. Here is the situation. Shooting box and a plate rack to be engaged from the shooting box. When leaving the box (one foot in the box, one foot in the air) the shooter fired at the last plate and missed. The shooter then pushed off with the foot that was on the ground and fired at the last plate with both feet in the air before either foot had touched down outside the box. In our case the shooter missed the last plate, but raised the question of whether or not a procedural would have applied if the plate had fallen. I searched here and looked through the rules, but couldn't find a conclusive answer. I don't believe a procedural would apply because the rule 10.2.1 specifies faulting as touching the ground or stepping on something outside the fault line. The way I see it you aren't faulting until you touch down outside the box. Would the same apply coming in to a shooting area with both feet off the ground? Or in that case you wouldn't be considered in the shooting area until you touch down inside the area? Hope this makes sense. Thanks.

Agreed, no procedurals should be given....in this scenario... with the information we were given in the OP

ETA: my caveat since folks like me, who weren't at the match, didn't get to see the written stage briefing.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Chills1994

[BSeevers]

I was at a local match and seen a few shooters jump from the free fire zone over a sissy stick-boundry line and fire two shots in mid-air on target(one of them got 2 alphas) before landing in the no fire zone. It was awsome!

I was going to mention that. I have it on video.

What kind of crazy man does that? I heard he did it at Area 5 a few years ago too.

It does relate to the 3 point shot in basketball. If you are not faulting, then no penalty. You have to commit the infraction to be penalized. No room for "intentions and judgement" in USPSA. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Chills1994]

yeah, as a somewhat casual observer of the NBA, I could have surmised the same thing. However, since I haven't actually read the NBA rulebook...or been through one of their level I ref classes.... well ya know...

[Nik Habicht]

Let's just keep it simple then..."with toes on X's, engage T1 through T4"

Sounds like an acceptable short course at a Level 1 --- or an IDPA legal stage.....

[Joe4d]

rule 10.2.2 says this:

A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed with one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty ( e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance) .

So, there ya have it.

If the shooter didn't shoot from within Box A as described in your written stage briefing, then, presto bingo, a procedural penalty for each shot fired.

So... hmmn... yeah... a little bit of the onus is on the MD or stage designer to write a good stage description.

If you write a good CoF description, then it is kind of a CYA maneuver to cut that kinda stuff out real quick.

Failing to comply with the WSB is a single procedural, not an each shot fired unless a significant advantage is gained, flying through the air isnt a significant advantage.

I do think both feet in the air outside the box isnt a fault line penalty it isnt "In the box" either so could warrant one or more procedurals based on a WSB violation.

I you arnt out of the box or shooting area unless a foot touches the ground outside it, then I say you arnt "In" the box if at least one body part isnt still touching.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Joe4d

[Nik Habicht]

Nik... that's noted... but I have no intention of ever RO'ing another major match. Ever. Call it once bitten, twice shy.

That's not the only reason to take it. The RO course is about officiating; the CRO course is about stage design and running an efficient and equitable stage. Lots of useful stuff there for Level 1 only participants.....

[Chills1994]

Nik wrote:

Sounds like an acceptable short course at a Level 1 --- or an IDPA legal stage.....

and:

That's not the only reason to take it. The RO course is about officiating; the CRO course is about stage design and running an efficient and equitable stage. Lots of useful stuff there for Level 1 only participants.....

Which is fine for me because chances are good that I will never be given the opportunity to design a stage, and if I do, it will only be at the local club level.

I have been away from IDPA for exactly two years. Last I knew, "hands on X's....toes on X's " was strictly a USPSA thing. I never encountered it in any IDPA matches.

switching gears here a bit...

Does anyone else here think that the rulebook could be better written to explain what is "within" a shooting box or fault line?

I kinda have the same opinion about popper calibration rules, that the language could be better, but I think we beat that horse to a pulp, like, what? six months ago.

Maybe there should be a rule in the rulebook that stages shouldn't force a shooter or an encourage a shooter to do Jackie Chan/Jet Li type maneuvers in order to complete a CoF.

Just sayin'...

[ima45dv8]

I happen to remember that,

Thought you might. I was hoping you'd stop by!

...and there were no penalties then, nor should there be any in this instance. You must be touching the ground or some other object outside the fault line (a box is just four fault lines connected at the corners) in order to incur a penalty. If you are up in the air, you can't be touching anything outside the box/fault line, therefore, no penalty, regardless of whether you hit anything or not. It's firing the shot that incurs the penalty while touching outside the box/fault line.

Mark is correct here.

Troy

That's exactly how I was taught.

[ima45dv8]

Let's just keep it simple then..."with toes on X's, engage T1 through T4"

Brad, I'm not too sure I would certify a stage that included that restriction while shooting, based on:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances. [emphasis added]

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location or stance.

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required.

1.1.5.5 Acourse of fire which, through the use of props, requires a competitor to shoot both strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only must not require that the shooter transition directly from one to the other. The course of fire must provide movement and unencumbered freestyle target engagement between the two.

It would perfectly permissible to mandate such a requirement as a starting position, but once the timer starts the shooter should be able to solve the problem in their own manner. It's very similar to the question of seated starts that comes up regularly. Yes, you can require a seated start, but you can't command that someone remain seated to shoot the stage. However, you can compel someone to stay seated by the use of props or vision barriers.

[Chills1994]

Yeah, I saw that already. I took a peek at it because of Lpatterson's urging.

[Chills1994]

There is still a lot of lee way there if a MD/stage designer wanted to be a total jerk.

And still make it a USPSA legal stage.