How would you handle this?

[outerlimits]

Referencing the Glock vs. 1911 argument, I think the only reason that we require folks to engage the safety on 1911 type guns is that they have them. A 1911 with a working grip safety is just as safe as any Glock.

and there's probably a half dozen of those in existence.

[whiskey1]

All three of mine work and anyone who wants is welcome to check...

Edited to add: I shoot a Glock at work and in three gun, but still...

Edited December 10, 2009 by whiskey1

[bigbrowndog]

Joe, i thought he meant half a dozen safe glocks

trapr

[mpeltier]

In my opinion, a safe gun is one pointed in a safe direction and not ready to fire. If a firearm has a malfunction serious enough that it is not in a ready-to-fire state, I would not consider it a hot gun. None of the guns we use in competition have the ability to fire without being in battery, so if a gun is abandoned out of battery I would not consider it a hot gun.

that does not mean it's safe. i have seen dq's where an abandoned shotgun had the bolt locked back or jammed with rounds in the mag tube. either safety on or completely empty-period.

This has me wondering exactly what the definition of a "safe" gun is?? A gun laying on the table (or box,barrel, etc), not touched by human hands is as safe as they get (regardless if they are loaded or not). Its when they are in human hands they are unsafe....That is the only way they can be ready to fire. An abandoned gun by virtue of not bieng handled is safe........ until it is picked up. Maybe the safety rules should be such that only the competitor is allowed to handle his own firearm(s) period.....of course under the supervision of the RO. This is of course assuming the gun in question is pointing in a safe direction, in which case its always safe...Right?????

[whiskey1]

I would vote for a rule change that stated "only competitors may handle their firearms at any time during or after a course of fire, and only under the supervision of a qualified RO. Competitors may not retireve their firearms from dump boxes or other places that they may have been abandoned as part of a course of fire until instructed to do so by the RO."

[bigbrowndog]

Joe, while it sounds like a good idea, it would lengthen the stage reset time considerably especially with 3 guns to a stage. I understand that time is better than an undeserved DQ, but, better dump boxes would be better in my opinion, and other than the SG every other gun could easily be unloaded.

Trapr

[Jack T]

I'm with you there. As long as there is continuity, it isn't a problem. It is just as much of a skill set to drop the mag and clear the chamber as any other skill set under a competition environment. Shotgun, physicaly secured dump barrel and there we go! Leaves no room for controversy.

Saigas, now there is the answer to the delimma. I have 30 brand new Saiga shotguns sitting up in the shop looking for a home!

JT

TacOps

Edited December 11, 2009 by Jack T

[Garryowen]

I'm with you there. As long as there is continuity, it isn't a problem. It is just as much of a skill set to drop the mag and clear the chamber as any other skill set under a competition environment. Shotgun, physicaly secured dump barrel and there we go! Leaves no room for controversy.

Saigas, now there is the answer to the delimma. I have 30 brand new Saiga shotguns sitting up in the shop looking for a home!

JT

TacOps

I guess you missed my post and if I'm not mistaken, Trapr's original post was about what happend with me at Ft. Benning (or it's a coincidence)... Saigas are basically crappy guns and offer problems you can find nowhere else, BUT it's pretty hard to beat that 10-20 round mag option...

Edited December 11, 2009 by Garryowen

[Jack T]

Oh yeah, I went back and looked again. I thought that was a Saiga, but really couldn't tell. They definitely take a lot of work. I am back in Tac Ops, my near vision is finally coming back from the crapy Lasic Surgery I had four years ago and I can half ass see the pistol front sight again.

I'll go back to open again when I get Old(er). If I was the MD/RM, I could not DQ a shooter for this. It's not an unsafe act and the weapon is inoperable. Common sense and the shooters benefit sould come into play here instead of letter of the law. But I guess that is what this thread is about.

Jack

JT Engineering

Edited December 11, 2009 by Jack T

[Jim Norman]

Slight drfit...

1911, Grip safety is secondary? or primary?

And where is it allowed specifically that any safety may be disabled? (All but one of mine are working and I would rather that one did!)

With respect tot he USPSA Rules:

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety”

means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the

thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt,

the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.

SO they (USPSA) apparently do not consider the grip safety to be a safety o a requirement.

The rules are specific to the safety lever, but does the omission of mention of the grip safety mean that it may be pinned or disabled? and what liability do you as the shooter have added if your gun is involved in an incident where having a working grip safety might have prevented said incident?

Drift off

Jim

[abn-rgr]

I like JJ's ideas on the dump barrels. We are incorporating these into the Adams Arms Ozark 3 Gun this year. I also like the idea of a stage DQ instead of match DQ. Like many have said, its safe until someone touches it. The beauty of outlaw matches is, we can make our own rules as long as they are safe. Thats what it is all about. I shoot a Glock and personally drop mag and rack slide every time I dump the gun. This sport costs too much to worry about that extra half second I added to my time.

[D.carden]

better dump boxes would be better in my opinion, and other than the SG every other gun could easily be unloaded.

Trapr

Agreed on that one............I earned a stage DQ at Tri-gun last Aug. My shotgun muzzle missed the small wood pocket at the bottom of the box (more like a ramp) and was touching the ground. The rest of the gun was in the box/ramp (?) just fine. But, touching the ground is a no-no regardless...!!!!

At our club, we have large barrels lined with carpet, slightly angled back, with steel stakes securing them. IMO, it's the best long gun method there is. Drop'it and go.!!!

Edited December 11, 2009 by D.carden

[RiggerJJ]

don't tip the barrels. If you want to be sure the muzzle is facing downrange while it is pointing down, put a ramp inside forcing the muzzle to the downrange side of the barrel bottom. they do need to be fastened down well with long stakes through the handles & zip tied AND staked thru the sides/bottom at an angle with normal 10" range nails.

Tipped longgun barrels are bad for 2 reasons;

1.when retreiving a longgun from one, there is a high possibility of grabbing the gun and catching the muzzle on the downrange side of the lip (which is higher than the uprange side) and sweeping the 180 muzzle down.

2.Extra long shotguns (I have one) will be real stock-heavy and slip slightly out of the barrel, leaving the muzzle on the high side of the bottom, basically pointing straight downrange parallel with the ground. this can also happen if an AR is dumped in the barrel and the mag or scope catches on the lip.

as for lining the bottom or sides, any carpet or foam or anything like that has a possibility of melting to a hot barrel, muzzle or comp. (I don't want to have to try to explain myself out of why I should not have to pay for somebodys new barrel because it is covered with melted carpet... )

line the bottom with old cardboard targets, cover the ramp explained above with cardboard...

In pistol trash cans, we use a 4x4x4 wooden block (or a cardboard box the same size will work) and line it and the bottom with cardboard as well.

jj

[A well Earled machine]

How many of you have been shot at a match? How many people have you heard of that have been shot at a match? I'm talking about shot, not a close call, not a dangerous situation, not something that made you uncomfortable. How many have been SHOT?

I have been playing this game more than 25 years and haven't seen or heard of even one person getting shot. I attribute that fine record to our rules. When it comes to safety our rules have it locked up tight.

If the rules say "Guns must be abandoned in Condition 1 or 3" then that’s it. The MD & RM better have a bomb proof place to leave your gun but, for the most part, that’s not on the shooter as long as he puts it in there right.

We need to be carful about writing rules - too many and some are bound to get lost - like old laws that are on the books, they may be there but nobody can find them.

As for a broken gun that CAN'T be put on safe or cleared [this MAY happen once in a R/O's career] if the gun can't be fired then that’s the same as being "on safe". Ok, so you invented a new way to put your gun "on safe". We're tinkering with our guns all the time - bottom line is it can't go bang when the trigger is pulled. If it can you're going home.

I also advocate MD's hiring experienced MULTIGUN R/Os. A guy should have enough time running 3 gunners to have a reputation of knowing what he's doing. The MD & RM should have one of these on each stage. Shooters pay too much to go to big matches to deserve otherwise. Putting a guy in charge of a Nationals stage simply because he's in the RM club and never worked a multigun stage much less knows nothing of how most long guns work is not fair to the paying shooter.

All this may be a bit off thread but if you have a R/O that knows what he's doing then nearly all of the situations you bring up will not be a problem.

[Dwight Stearns]

I had a similar thing happen to me at the FN/CMMG match last year shooting the FN stage. I went to clear the rifle and jammed a live round in the ejection port area. (probably due to my wimpy clearing of the rifle.... didn't want to break it you know) I showed the RO the problem and was told to leave it. As I picked up the shotgun I heard the RO tell one of the other RO's to stay with the rifle. No DQ and excellent job by all the RO's involved.

Dwight

Edited February 25, 2010 by Dwight Stearns