Giving a tired old open gun one more chance.

[JDBraddy]

A couple years ago, I wanted to try open, and bought an inexpensive used Caspian, an tried shooting open for several months, I had trouble indexing the dot, didn't like the feel of the grip, and didn't like chasing the expensive Supercomp brass, the 3N-38 powder I was using became expensive and hard to find, finding mags was a problem, and the lense of my C-more is etched from muzzle blast, so I decided to go back to limited. The Caspian had been unused in my gunsafe for almost a year now, and I was trying to peddle it off at the last match. The gun functions and shoots well, so a shooting buddy talked me into giving open one more try. Would like to put grip pannels on the gun to see if this would help fill my hand and improve the feel of the grip, and he suggested trying a Quin mount with a larger dot module since I planned to transition back and forth from limited to open. Other suggestions before I do this?

Edited November 25, 2009 by JDBraddy

[Hi-Power Jack]

A couple years ago, I wanted to try open, and bought an inexpensive used Caspian, an tried shooting open for several months, I had trouble indexing the dot, didn't like the feel of the grip, and didn't like chasing the expensive Supercomp brass, the 3N-38 powder I was using became expensive and hard to find, finding mags was a problem, and the lense of my C-more is etched from muzzle blast, so I decided to go back to limited. The Caspian had been unused in my gunsafe for almost a year now, and I was trying to peddle it off at the last match. The gun functions and shoots well, so a shooting buddy talked me into giving open one more try. Would like to put grip pannels on the gun to see if this would help fill my hand and improve the feel of the grip, and he suggested trying a Quin mount with a larger dot module since I planned to transition back and forth from limited to open. Other suggestions before I do this?

I "transit back & forth from Limited to Open" as well - and have the same problem with

the optical sight - takes time to pick up the dot quickly. Fortunately, I don't have all

the other problems you have - I got a TruBor in 9mm major and have no problem with

brass or powder (I use HS6). Reason I got into Open is at 65, my eyes don't see the

iron sights very well anymore - and the dot really helps. So, I put up with the other

problems. If I had your gun, I'd sell it and buy a 9mm major - lots more fun and

easier.

Good luck.

Jack

[kgunz11]

Send the gun to someone that can do a complete make over on the gun. Tighten things up, refinish it, install the Quinn and new C-More with good glass, put the grip panels on also. You'd think you had a new gun when you got it back at a fraction of the cost.

[caspian guy]

Well... Finding mags shouldn't be a problem anymore... (Even a bigstick isn't too bad a problem call Jim Anglin for that). Adding the grips will change how it fills you hand some.

On finding the dot... A quinn mount would probably help you if you switch back and forth a lot (I find I do ok with the standard mount like yours with just a couple of hours of dryfire but I have shot a lot of open so ymmv).

The cost of good same headstamped once fired 9mm has gone up a good bit, so you'd have to do the math on whether its better to shoot what you have or re-barrel to 9 (I have had 2 of my caspians re-barreled to 9 so that's not a huge deal).

The best advice I could give you about giving open a try is to commit to it for several months(and do the necessary dryfire to get the required muscle memory.)

If you decide you don't want it pm me...( I can always use another caspian )

Edited November 25, 2009 by caspian guy

[ExtremeShot]

+1 on the side mount, however I would use the Cheely. Use Sihlouette or HP-6 for powder, its cheaper and easier to find.

+++1 on switching the barrel to a 9mm.

[kgunz11]

Why do you prefer the Cheely over the Quinn? I have both, and they both seem to work about the same, except the Quinn might be a little lower. I was wondering if you knew something I didn't.

[ExtremeShot]

Why do you prefer the Cheely over the Quinn? I have both, and they both seem to work about the same, except the Quinn might be a little lower. I was wondering if you knew something I didn't.

I prefer the Cheely 'cause he's a buddy. Regarding how low it is...the Cheely is practically touching the slide. ....It all depends on where your mounting holes are located and that is determined by the guy that cut them, not the mount.

D

[Mark K]

The C-More can be sent to the factory, and for about $60 they can replace the lense.

Mark K.

[kgunz11]

Why do you prefer the Cheely over the Quinn? I have both, and they both seem to work about the same, except the Quinn might be a little lower. I was wondering if you knew something I didn't.

I prefer the Cheely 'cause he's a buddy. Regarding how low it is...the Cheely is practically touching the slide. ....It all depends on where your mounting holes are located and that is determined by the guy that cut them, not the mount.

D

All STI factory drilled slides are in the same place, that's what I use for reference. I consider Matt and Jim both friends, and I have both mounts in the store. I thought maybe you had a reason why 1 would be better than the other. People ask me that all the time, and I'm unable to quantify one being any better than the other one.

[CenTX]

I had the same problem and made a couple of changes that made a big difference.

Saw the Barry mount on Matt McLearn's gun when we were squadded together at last years Nationals. I switched to it, this was before the Cheely and Quinn mounts. Also went to a 12 minute dot. I switch back and fourth from Limited and Open now without any problems finding the dot. The slant and 90 degree mounts also eliminate the hold over on up close targets.

[Flexmoney]

Finding the dot is a matter of properly presenting the gun. Many don't.

Nothing wrong (at all) with the side-ways mounts, but it need not be an issue of new equipment.

[kgunz11]

Finding the dot is a matter of properly presenting the gun. Many don't.

Nothing wrong (at all) with the side-ways mounts, but it need not be an issue of new equipment.

Index is everything, but for guys that have already built and index with an iron sighted gun, these new mounts make the transition much smoother. I have yet to find the gadget to take away the need for dry fire though! Maybe we should start bottling Cheely's DNA and selling it... that might work!

[Chills1994]

kgunz wrote:

...bottling Cheely's DNA and selling it... that might work!

Eww! Gross!

(just foolin' with ya, Bobby, I know that's not what you meant.... )

[Flexmoney]

Index is everything, but for guys that have already built and index with an iron sighted gun, these new mounts make the transition much smoother.

If all the shooter has to go on is index, then they had better be dry-firing on a regularly scheduled basis, for sure. It takes a lot of work to build and maintain a truely good index.

Presenting the gun is a different thing altogether. It's a technique. It can be much more universal. Once understood, it's is easier to fall back on and not quite as hard to build/practice/maintain.

[CocoBolo]

The standard mount is the wedge or incline and the sidemore is the Wheel.

The main feature of the standard mount is it has always been that way, it is a paradigm.

I have not seen any logical presentation of features for the standard mount that make it superior.

With the sidemore aka Quinn, Cheely, Barry, it is easy to get dot and you can actually point to where you want to hit. They are a marvel of straight forward enginering and simplicity.

If the standard mount truely made sense we would be jacking the sights up two inches on limited guns.

[Flexmoney]

CocoBolo,

I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying, except one thing. The main feature of the "standard" mount in this case is that it is already on the opening poster's gun, and he ask if there were things to try before he started buying and swapping.

With that in mind, the standard mount has been put to great use by many shooters over the years. IMO, a key to using it well is a presentation that allows the shooter to press the gun out along his/her visual cone...and acquire the dot (as opposed to putting the gun at extension then looking for the dot).

There are lots of threads on this. I go into a bit of detail on this one (not that I have all the answers): Red Dot Help...can't find it.

[kgunz11]

Index is everything, but for guys that have already built and index with an iron sighted gun, these new mounts make the transition much smoother.

If all the shooter has to go on is index, then they had better be dry-firing on a regularly scheduled basis, for sure. It takes a lot of work to build and maintain a truely good index.

Presenting the gun is a different thing altogether. It's a technique. It can be much more universal. Once understood, it's is easier to fall back on and not quite as hard to build/practice/maintain.

Is presentation not a part of the index? IMO, it is, being that it is another part of the puzzle. Index is the act of presenting the gun to the target and the sights aligning to the shooters eye. Perfecting the presentation does not build a solid index, but without proper presentation, you have no index.

[Neomet]

I've only shot the Cheely but have a couple bros' that runs the QuinnII and have I've messed around with them. Other than construction and aesthetics which are the obvious differences there are two smaller things I noted both related to the Cheely being a little more forward on the gun. The first is that only the front of the lens gets slimed with comp backblast. My buddy's QII gets sprayed on the back of the lens from the ejection port as well. We both are running non-ported 5" Trubore barreled guns. Really not a big thing as we both clean the lens after every stage. (Its nice to have a friend who also has compulsive behaviors.) The other thing is that because of neurological issues I have very weak pinch strength. The Cheely lets me get at more of the back of the slide so I can rack the gun in a reasonable fashion. (I am resisting slide rackers still). This obviously won't impact 99% of shooters, but it is an observation.

As far as which one has better dot tracking, faster draw/split times or makes a better espresso I'll have to leave that to those who have shot both.

I think either one would be a great addition to your resurrection.

edited... spelling, spelling, spelling....

Edited November 26, 2009 by Neomet

[CocoBolo]

FlexMoney - I agree that with due dilligence you can overcome the inherient design defficiencies of the standard mount. I can respect those shooters that have mastered it by many hours of practice, as well as those many hours guns smiths have spent making guns eject around it.

JBraddy shoots a limited gun very accurate and with good speed, he has awesome recoil control, but he has that Dirty Harry presentation, what we commonly refer to a porpusing. The gun swings up over and then down, he will have to fix that regardless.

Having personally inspected the gun all it needs is a good cleaning and a fresh battery in the C-more.

Going 9 mm would cure the picking up brass, and most of the expense could be recouped in a sale as 9 mm opens sell for considerably more than 38 Super in the used market.

If he is going to learn to present and given he has already had a failure on the regular mount a sidemore will certainly result in a better outcome, and its a fairly insignificant expense in this shooting game.

[Flexmoney]

Yeah, your not really hearing me.

I am saying that it doesn't have to take a billion hours perfecting perfection.

I can take nearly any gun...from a 1911 without any sights on it, to an Open Glock with the world's tallest/worst C-more mount, to an iron sighted M&P...and present it with a standard technique that allows the eyes to see what they need to see to drive the gun onto the target...rather efficiently, and most universally.

There need not be all of this hide-and-seek with the sights/dot.

It doesn't have to take a ton of work, if the work that is done is using a better/universal technique.

[G-ManBart]

If the grip didn't feel right, making a change so that it does is a smart idea. The big dots work well for a lot of people. I'm running a 12moa on both of my guns and it didn't hurt me on the last long standards I shot, so I don't see a problem there. It does seem to be eaiser to track compared with the normal 6 and 8s most folks run.

I put a Quinn on one of my guns and thought it was nice, but couldn't get over hitting it with my support thumb. Finding the dot in normal presentations is a little easier with the side mounts, but they seem to offer more advantage on strong hand only or support hand only shooting (maybe because most of us practice that less). I'm forced to go from Open gun to stock Glock to 1911 to M&P etc on a regular basis and while I have a preference in how some index for me, it's not really all that big a deal...maybe because I have to switch so much I've gotten used to it.

Swapping out the scope mount isn't a big deal and doesn't cost too much, so it's worth trying. I wouldn't bother even thinking about changing loads, rebarreling etc until you decide whether you actually want to shoot Open. If you decide to continue with it, maybe some of those are things you can consider, but for now I'd change as little as possible and see what happens when the gun fits your hand a little better and when you don't have to work as hard to find the dot (hopefully).

I will add that the side mounts having little to no point of impact difference at close ranges is a very nice feature and a strong selling point. R,

[G-ManBart]

Going 9 mm would cure the picking up brass, and most of the expense could be recouped in a sale as 9 mm opens sell for considerably more than 38 Super in the used market.

Not sure where you're seeing that, but the prices I've seen are about equal. Take two identical guns and the price for the 9 isn't going to be any higher. There was a brief period where it seemed like that was going to be a trend, but it didn't last long. I actually know a few folks that have rebarreled to 38SC now that many sources of free or inexpensive once-fired 9 have dried up. Still, I think rebarreling is a bit beyond the question at hand. Even an inexpensive rebarrel job is going to run $300+ and it won't increase the value of the gun that much, if any. R,

[rishii]

JD

I shoot a caspian, and without grips, I couldn't draw or index the gun worth a damn ether.

the grips I use are the navredex?, they are made for the frame and contoured to fit the hand, but good luck finding any.

I tried the hogue grips, they were a little better than just plain grip tape, but not by much.

alumagrips are making them for the caspian, although I've never seen any

http://www.alumagrips.com/main.taf?p=2,6,2,4

the standard c-more mount works great, just put in about 20-30 hrs of dry fire, and you'll find it without any problem.

however I'm running the quinn II mount right now and I do love it.

for powder I use ramshot silhouette, or hs-6, which ever I can get my hands on

about the only other thing I would add to the gun is a egw magwell and basepads

[Harmon]

i never understood the need for the sideways mounts for c-mores...then again im not selling them or promoting them for those who are selling them.

I never suffered from the "c-more shuffle" a good strong index with an iron sighted pistol is the building block to being able to effectively shoot an open gun.

I hear too many people say they are switching to open because they cannot see the sights and then they start looking for a lower/different mount, bigger brighter dot, and other alternatives claiming they cant find the dot when the problem really lies within the shooter himself not in the equipment.

most complaints of not seeing the sights stems from the shooter not presenting the gun correctly and with that bad index burnt into the skillset of the shooter, an optically sighted open gun is going to give poor results as well.

my favorite complaint is " i cant shoot glocks, they shoot high for me..." TOTAL BS they shoot high because somebody is not aiming.

The ONLY thing i would change on your gun is to add a larger magazine well...nearly perfect as-is.

[joecichlid]

The C-More can be sent to the factory, and for about $60 they can replace the lense.

Mark K.

And when they are doing that they can switch it to a Slide Ride style as well. When I cracked the body on my Slide Ride they asked me what style body I would like on it when they sent it back. Also asked what color I wanted. lol

Joe W.