Common sense in stage design

[SinistralRifleman]

There's a difference between an equipment failure dropped gun (sling breaks, gun falls out of holster, holster breaks off belt) and the competitor dropping the gun when its in their hand. An unloaded gun hitting the dirt is not as unsafe as a loaded gun falling from a competitors hand while they are shooting. Gun dropping out of their hand also shows a greater degree of negligence/inability to control oneself on a stage.

Edited November 23, 2009 by SinistralRifleman

[Jadeslade]

I don't think he's saying that. It's kind of like when you are on a trail and something happens that is a DQ type thing in the judgment of the RO but after discussion and consultation with MD, etc. it wan't unsafe, but rather a technical issue. Don't make everything black and white-because it isn't. Some RO's are better than others so everything does not have to be dumbed down to the least capable one is bullet proof because the rules are the rules. That is why the so called outlaw matches are extremely popular-they are run by people who are really knowledgeable in shooting, training, match planning and design. They also are breaking new ground. No one who shoots them thinks they are unsafe. More rounds are run daily on hot ranges with extreme shooting going on in the US than we in USPSA could possibly shoot in matches-and it is done safely and with intent to perfect skills. Don't accuse people of things just because you don't agree with them.

[ERIC]

BRING IT!!!!!

Jumping jacks, cart wheels, hand stands, forward roll, 100 yard dash, long jump, triple jump, hurdles, pole vault, pommel horse, vault, parallel bars, rope climb, etc.

My gear is set up so I won't lose anything (gun, mags or shotgun ammo).

I wonder if anyone got DQed at the 2009 SMM3G (stage 3)? We started prone with our rifle and an unloaded holstered pistol.

[RufDog]

+1 on stage DQ's versus match DQ's. I've witnessed both, unfortunately. Simply put, so many of us have a greater financial outlay in setting up for and then getting to large matches that it is such a great disappointment to see it happen much less have it happen to the shooter. DQ a stage and you still get that burning fire in the pit of your stomach from knowing you just committed a major party foul compounded by the fact that you did it in front of your new best friends. But... your weekend aint over yet...

So you're saying that money and a weekend of fun should trump the safety of the competitors at a match? Really?

I am certain nobody is implying we throw safety out the window.

[bigbrowndog]

Andy, i had forgotten about the stage DQ ruling that has just recently been used, and I agree that I like that for this purpose. I remember it being used at Blue Ridge as well as somewhere else.

I think it was a very good use of common sense, with the penalty fitting the issue.

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

Chiming in here late.

Stage DQ as opposed to a DQ? So an unloaded gun falls out of my holster vs a loaded gun falling. Bad equipment is a competitors choice. I vote in favor of a match DQ for a dropped gun during the COF. Period.

We have rules like this to keep us safe and reducing them will eventually have the result of reducing safety.

Go to a USPSA match, use your CR or ghost or...

Go to a three gun/multi-gun? use a Blade tech, Sherpa, retention holster of some type. the speed of your draw is rarely if ever the deciding factor in a multi-gun match. make it secure.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, look at my stage DQ at BRM3G, I placed my SG in a barrel and left, if was supposed to be empty. however it was in a barrel pointed into the ground. no one went in front of the muzzle. the rule was that it would be a stage DQ, not a match DQ.

I was prepared for the match DQ because I FU!!! however the MD had already decided that "safe" FU's would receive a stage DQ. I agree with this new idea of using common sense to mitigate certain infractions. Just like RM3G saying that a slug on a plate meant for shot, will incur a 30sec. penalty and a fine. not a DQ.

These are simply working examples of common sense prevailing over over blown hysterics. This is the type of change and innovation that I am glad to be seeing instead of the norm of "thanks for your money", hit the road" Another example that affected me, what difference does it make if your rifle suddenly fires short bursts instead of one round per trigger squeeze while in a COF??? if the rounds are impacting the targets and going downrange, the shooter is in control of the rifle, let the shooter finish the COF if they choose to and fix the problem after. Or if the RO is uncomfortable and stops the shooter then why doesn't the shooter get to address the issue and reshoot the stage. Issues like these should all be handled by a MD or RM with common sense, and can be at "other" matches, this may be another reason why "other" matches do sooooooo much better.

A shooter drops all his SG ammo, his buddy picks it up for him, thinking he is helping to clean up the stage for the next shooter, shooter comes back to retrieve ammo, does he get a procedural for having someone assist him in gathering his ammo together?????????????????? Does the helper get a procedural for interfering with the shooter during a stage???????

Common sense says, wait a sec guys lets start this rodeo over again and this time try to keep all your ammo on you, and Rob. quit trying to "HELP" with stage pick up!!!!!

There is a reason why "other" match rule books are so short, one of them is because RM's, RO's and MD's are allowed to use common sense!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[RufDog]

Jim, look at my stage DQ at BRM3G, I placed my SG in a barrel and left, if was supposed to be empty. however it was in a barrel pointed into the ground. no one went in front of the muzzle. the rule was that it would be a stage DQ, not a match DQ.

I was prepared for the match DQ because I FU!!! however the MD had already decided that "safe" FU's would receive a stage DQ. I agree with this new idea of using common sense to mitigate certain infractions. Just like RM3G saying that a slug on a plate meant for shot, will incur a 30sec. penalty and a fine. not a DQ.

These are simply working examples of common sense prevailing over over blown hysterics. This is the type of change and innovation that I am glad to be seeing instead of the norm of "thanks for your money", hit the road" Another example that affected me, what difference does it make if your rifle suddenly fires short bursts instead of one round per trigger squeeze while in a COF??? if the rounds are impacting the targets and going downrange, the shooter is in control of the rifle, let the shooter finish the COF if they choose to and fix the problem after. Or if the RO is uncomfortable and stops the shooter then why doesn't the shooter get to address the issue and reshoot the stage. Issues like these should all be handled by a MD or RM with common sense, and can be at "other" matches, this may be another reason why "other" matches do sooooooo much better.

A shooter drops all his SG ammo, his buddy picks it up for him, thinking he is helping to clean up the stage for the next shooter, shooter comes back to retrieve ammo, does he get a procedural for having someone assist him in gathering his ammo together?????????????????? Does the helper get a procedural for interfering with the shooter during a stage???????

Common sense says, wait a sec guys lets start this rodeo over again and this time try to keep all your ammo on you, and Rob. quit trying to "HELP" with stage pick up!!!!!

There is a reason why "other" match rule books are so short, one of them is because RM's, RO's and MD's are allowed to use common sense!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

Over blown hysterics, America is all about it right now. For every action there is an equal and opposite OVER reaction. Everybody knows you (BROWN DOG) will own up & take what is coming as will I, however, it need not be ridiculous. If you want a bunch of hand holding as a participant stop shooting outlaw matches & join the Army, they love that sh*t.

[Nik Habicht]

There's a difference between an equipment failure dropped gun (sling breaks, gun falls out of holster, holster breaks off belt) and the competitor dropping the gun when its in their hand. An unloaded gun hitting the dirt is not as unsafe as a loaded gun falling from a competitors hand while they are shooting. Gun dropping out of their hand also shows a greater degree of negligence/inability to control oneself on a stage.

So, as long as the gun's demonstrated to be unloaded, you're o.k. with it being pointed at you? How about being dryfired at you? Where do we draw the line? An equipment failure is less unsafe than a competitor dropping a firearm? Does that still hold if a loaded rifle falls of a sling or a loaded pistol falls out of a holster? It's o.k., the holster broke --- not!

I don't think he's saying that. It's kind of like when you are on a trail and something happens that is a DQ type thing in the judgment of the RO but after discussion and consultation with MD, etc. it wan't unsafe, but rather a technical issue. Don't make everything black and white-because it isn't. Some RO's are better than others so everything does not have to be dumbed down to the least capable one is bullet proof because the rules are the rules. That is why the so called outlaw matches are extremely popular-they are run by people who are really knowledgeable in shooting, training, match planning and design. They also are breaking new ground. No one who shoots them thinks they are unsafe. More rounds are run daily on hot ranges with extreme shooting going on in the US than we in USPSA could possibly shoot in matches-and it is done safely and with intent to perfect skills. Don't accuse people of things just because you don't agree with them.

There are experienced competitors and ROs, inexperienced competitors and ROs, and all of them are capable of making mistakes. We can't tolerate mistakes in this sport -- the consequences are too serious -- so once a competitor demonstrates a possibility or propensity for error (human, equipment maintenance, ammo quality) we need to deal that -- by disqualifying the competitor, the gun, the holster or the ammo, depending on the situation. Anything less ignores the responsibility towards other competitors, match officials, and range owners.

BRING IT!!!!!

Jumping jacks, cart wheels, hand stands, forward roll, 100 yard dash, long jump, triple jump, hurdles, pole vault, pommel horse, vault, parallel bars, rope climb, etc.

My gear is set up so I won't lose anything (gun, mags or shotgun ammo).

I wonder if anyone got DQed at the 2009 SMM3G (stage 3)? We started prone with our rifle and an unloaded holstered pistol.

Sounds like proper attention to detail.....

+1 on stage DQ's versus match DQ's. I've witnessed both, unfortunately. Simply put, so many of us have a greater financial outlay in setting up for and then getting to large matches that it is such a great disappointment to see it happen much less have it happen to the shooter. DQ a stage and you still get that burning fire in the pit of your stomach from knowing you just committed a major party foul compounded by the fact that you did it in front of your new best friends. But... your weekend aint over yet...

So you're saying that money and a weekend of fun should trump the safety of the competitors at a match? Really?

I am certain nobody is implying we throw safety out the window.

Ken seemed to be implying that --- and I'll concede that that likely wasn't his intent. Important to set that record straight though.....

Jim, look at my stage DQ at BRM3G, I placed my SG in a barrel and left, if was supposed to be empty. however it was in a barrel pointed into the ground. no one went in front of the muzzle. the rule was that it would be a stage DQ, not a match DQ.

I was prepared for the match DQ because I FU!!! however the MD had already decided that "safe" FU's would receive a stage DQ. I agree with this new idea of using common sense to mitigate certain infractions. Just like RM3G saying that a slug on a plate meant for shot, will incur a 30sec. penalty and a fine. not a DQ.

Trapr

Those things you point out may have been safe at those matches -- I can't argue with that because I wasn't there. They are different situations from dropping a gun.....

And, lest anyone think that I only approach this from a USPSA standpoint, I've shot a couple of outlaw multigun matches where the primary safety rule was "Don't point a muzzle at anyone." That worked for that match.....

[Charles Bond]

If we can afford these matches and the guns and other equipment that go with them, we can afford decent holsters that secure our weapons.

Shooting is fun. Most matches are more fun than you can have otherwise. But doing it all safely, that is priceless.

[SinistralRifleman]

So, as long as the gun's demonstrated to be unloaded, you're o.k. with it being pointed at you? How about being dryfired at you? Where do we draw the line? An equipment failure is less unsafe than a competitor dropping a firearm? Does that still hold if a loaded rifle falls of a sling or a loaded pistol falls out of a holster? It's o.k., the holster broke --- not!

I take it you've never attended a gun show, or SHOT Show. All the guns are safety bonded or otherwise disabled. You'd go nuts and probably have agoraphobia by the time you're done. You will be muzzle swept constantly and look down lots of muzzles. I'm not OK with it, and if I see it I'll step out of the way. Just walking down the aisle you will have muzzles pointing at you sitting in racks. Is this dangerous?...maybe but so is crossing the street.

More than one of the basic firearms safety rules has to be broken for someone to get hurt. Dry firing a gun at someone is breaking more than one safety rule.

I could argue that automatically DQ'ing someone for a dropped gun encourages unsafe gun handling and increases the chances for accidents. This rule will make someone try to catch a dropping gun; you should never try to catch a gun that is falling. It dramatically increases the chances of an ND as your hand clenches up on the firearm there is a great tendency to pull the trigger. I can take my Glock and throw it like a frisbee, loaded across the range and it will not go off. The same is true of every modern handgun; if you have something that has been tuned to the point of unreliability that is a different story.

Equipment breaking may not even be the shooter's fault; it could be defective product from the manufacturer. A dropped gun as a result of poor equipment does not demonstrate negligence on the part of the shooter to the same level as dropping a gun in their hand, breaking the 180, or a negligent discharge. A stage DQ should be appropriate as well as requiring they replace the defective equipment or otherwise fix the problem to the satisfaction of the match staff.

[RufDog]

Shooting is fun. Most matches are more fun than you can have otherwise. But doing it all safely, that is priceless.

thanks for bringing a touch of humor to your point- good line!

[RobMoore]

So, as long as the gun's demonstrated to be unloaded, you're o.k. with it being pointed at you?

Don't forget that there are other rules to gun safety beyond the "treat every weapon as if it were loaded until verified otherwise". The one about keeping it pointed in a safe direction applies to loaded and unloaded guns.

There is such as thing as an unloaded gun, or else you as an RO would never let me step off the line after ULSC, and you'd never get to clean or dry fire a gun.....since you'd never do either of those two things with a loaded gun.

Now, I don't think my edit negates the argument you were making, I just dislike the "all guns are always loaded" approach to safety. If the rules say a dropped gun, loaded or unloaded, is a DQ, then it is a DQ. If the rules of the sport/venue make a distinction, then that distinction must be honored.

[Nik Habicht]

I could argue that automatically DQ'ing someone for a dropped gun encourages unsafe gun handling and increases the chances for accidents. This rule will make someone try to catch a dropping gun; you should never try to catch a gun that is falling. It dramatically increases the chances of an ND as your hand clenches up on the firearm there is a great tendency to pull the trigger. I can take my Glock and throw it like a frisbee, loaded across the range and it will not go off. The same is true of every modern handgun; if you have something that has been tuned to the point of unreliability that is a different story.

You're confusing dropping a gun and having a gun hit the ground. The moment the shooter loses control of the gun it's a dropped gun, not as soon as it hits the deck.....

[bigbrowndog]

common sense???????????????????????

I said, COMMON SENSE.

you can alleviate most of the problems you all mention simply with common sense as it relates to stage design.

I have also seen that pistol people seem to be really uptight when having to deal with multi gunners or 3 gunners, so it would seem that judging from most of the comments here that most of that feeling prevails. this is one of the reasons that I left pistol only matches, because of the attitude and uptightness that seem to be the norm for pistoleros.

ZERO TOLERANCE has never worked in any arena that I am aware of, at some point in time COMMON SENSE must PREVAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

Trapr,

What my 'problem' is with this is that there are a lot of people migrating into 3gun/multi-gun form Pistol only, or worse coming in cold. You I trust probably as far as anyone, same goes for many others. Then again there are those that definitely worry me. Even at a Pistol only match.

The common sense gun handling I see at multi-gun is fine because so far most of the people are experienced, as the sport grrows and attrats more of the less experienced their level of adherence to "Common Sense" and their level of "Common Sense" will be lower.

Jim

[Charles Bond]

Trapr,

What my 'problem' is with this is that there are a lot of people migrating into 3gun/multi-gun form Pistol only, or worse coming in cold. You I trust probably as far as anyone, same goes for many others. Then again there are those that definitely worry me. Even at a Pistol only match.

The common sense gun handling I see at multi-gun is fine because so far most of the people are experienced, as the sport grrows and attrats more of the less experienced their level of adherence to "Common Sense" and their level of "Common Sense" will be lower.

Jim

Bingo! This is why it makes common sense to have a set of rules for all multigun matches. Even if all the matches can only agree upon a set of safety rules, it makes good sense to have some that do not vary from match to match.

The USPSA safety rules work and there exists a trained and experienced set of range officers who know these rules. If you don't like those, write an alternative. But there needs to be a standard so that when a shooter attends the Greenwater Classic that he does not have a differenct standard of safety than what was used when he shot at the Buckcreek Open. Common sense tells us that there should be no confusion as to the standard of safety and when shooters, especially those less experienced as Jim Norman points out above, should not be confused on this matter.

And now let me put on my lawyer hat. You decide to put on a match not affiliated with any of the mainstream shooting organizations. Shooter gets hurt and you get sued. Do you not think it probable that the attorney for the plaintiff is going to argue to the jury that your match was less than safe because you failed to follow the safety rules set out by orgainzations like USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy, etc? Now that might not play well to those who read this forum but to a soccer mom who is likely going to be on the jury who understands rules because her kids play soccer, that is going to be a point that gains some traction.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Charles Bond

[Brian Payne]

I don't think you see that the rules change when you shoot outlaw 3-gun matches. The safety rules are still in place. It is the level/type of punished that may be different.

[Jadeslade]

Trapr,

What my 'problem' is with this is that there are a lot of people migrating into 3gun/multi-gun form Pistol only, or worse coming in cold. You I trust probably as far as anyone, same goes for many others. Then again there are those that definitely worry me. Even at a Pistol only match.

The common sense gun handling I see at multi-gun is fine because so far most of the people are experienced, as the sport grrows and attrats more of the less experienced their level of adherence to "Common Sense" and their level of "Common Sense" will be lower.

Jim

Bingo! This is why it makes common sense to have a set of rules for all multigun matches. Even if all the matches can only agree upon a set of safety rules, it makes good sense to have some that do not vary from match to match.

The USPSA safety rules work and there exists a trained and experienced set of range officers who know these rules. If you don't like those, write an alternative. But there needs to be a standard so that when a shooter attends the Greenwater Classic that he does not have a differenct standard of safety than what was used when he shot at the Buckcreek Open. Common sense tells us that there should be no confusion as to the standard of safety and when shooters, especially those less experienced as Jim Norman points out above, should not be confused on this matter.

And now let me put on my lawyer hat. You decide to put on a match not affiliated with any of the mainstream shooting organizations. Shooter gets hurt and you get sued. Do you not think it probable that the attorney for the plaintiff is going to argue to the jury that your match was less than safe because you failed to follow the safety rules set out by orgainzations like USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy, etc? Now that might not play well to those who read this forum but to a soccer mom who is likely going to be on the jury who understands rules because her kids play soccer, that is going to be a point that gains some traction.

So, why do we sign waivers, even at USPSA events? I can get an equal and opposite expert for every expert you can get. If I or anyone really worried about getting sued all the time, we would stay home in a straight backed chair watching clouds go by. Instead I support my lawyers and guns with money. It's a sport, less risky than soccer, football, hockey-not because of safety rules or a rule book-but because shooters take it seriously and take extra care to do good. Laws don't stop crime and rules don't stop poor gun handling.

[mpeltier]

I read the common sense issue as bieng directed towards the match/match staff/course design in how the situation outlined in the original post was to be handled or prevented. That is much differant than the issue of the level of common sense of some competitors.

I do feel that a stage DQ would be more appropriate in the outlined situation.

I have witnessed many a dropped gun (mostly at USPSA matches) as well as muzzles swinging wildly on slinged long guns, never felt my safety was at stake.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles get off your soap box about how wonderful USPSA runs things, this topic is about MD's and RM's and to some extent Stage designers of multigun and 3 gun matches, being able to handle issues without being handcuffed to a set of rules, and as far as I am aware of all multigun matches operate with a set of rules????????

As for the rules being easy to use, in Norway it took the guy that WROTE the rules about an hour to find the specific rule that denied me a reshoot on a stage. So how easy is it for a layperson to locate what they need.

Flexibility, adaptability, common sense, call it what you like it makes for a much better shooting atmosphere with the participants, and still allows safety.

Every person I've ever seen shoot themselves or anyone else, accidently at a match was during a pistol match. Having a rulebook made up of 100's of pages doesn't make people safer, knowledge and common sense does!!!!!

Jim, I do see your point, but again I was referring to MD's, RM's and stage design being able to greatly reduce occurrences from happening, and at the same time keep competitors happy and wanting to return.

trapr

Edited November 24, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[SinistralRifleman]

I have witnessed many a dropped gun (mostly at USPSA matches) as well as muzzles swinging wildly on slinged long guns, never felt my safety was at stake.

Yeah, I'm with you there. The only time I've been concerned for my safety by something I saw a shooter do is when I saw someone turn around and fire at a 45 degree angle up range before the RO could stop them.

[StealthyBlagga]

Jim, look at my stage DQ at BRM3G, I placed my SG in a barrel and left, if was supposed to be empty. however it was in a barrel pointed into the ground. no one went in front of the muzzle. the rule was that it would be a stage DQ, not a match DQ.

I was prepared for the match DQ because I FU!!! however the MD had already decided that "safe" FU's would receive a stage DQ. I agree with this new idea of using common sense to mitigate certain infractions. Just like RM3G saying that a slug on a plate meant for shot, will incur a 30sec. penalty and a fine. not a DQ.

These are simply working examples of common sense prevailing over over blown hysterics. This is the type of change and innovation that I am glad to be seeing instead of the norm of "thanks for your money", hit the road" Another example that affected me, what difference does it make if your rifle suddenly fires short bursts instead of one round per trigger squeeze while in a COF??? if the rounds are impacting the targets and going downrange, the shooter is in control of the rifle, let the shooter finish the COF if they choose to and fix the problem after. Or if the RO is uncomfortable and stops the shooter then why doesn't the shooter get to address the issue and reshoot the stage. Issues like these should all be handled by a MD or RM with common sense, and can be at "other" matches, this may be another reason why "other" matches do sooooooo much better.

A shooter drops all his SG ammo, his buddy picks it up for him, thinking he is helping to clean up the stage for the next shooter, shooter comes back to retrieve ammo, does he get a procedural for having someone assist him in gathering his ammo together?????????????????? Does the helper get a procedural for interfering with the shooter during a stage???????

Common sense says, wait a sec guys lets start this rodeo over again and this time try to keep all your ammo on you, and Rob. quit trying to "HELP" with stage pick up!!!!!

There is a reason why "other" match rule books are so short, one of them is because RM's, RO's and MD's are allowed to use common sense!!!!!!!!!

Trapr

Wow - some examples here of why "common sense" is not so common. I can attest to the fact that shooting a steel plate inside a safe distance (USPSA says 131ft) can create dangerous splash-back... I once shot Angus Hobdell with splash back from a slug at ~60ft (the plate hit was required by the poorly-designed COF). Now, some might argue that shooting Angus was a service to the shooting community, but that's a whole different thread . As for the burst-firing, I typically give the shooter the benefit of the doubt if it happens a few times, as it is more often bump-firing than a trigger malfunction, but if it happens a lot I want the shooter to stop before a safety problem develops - I have seen guns run away, which can be chaotic and dangerous in the hands of a less experienced shooter . With this said, my experience is that good ROs exercise common sense every time they pick up the shot timer - I can recall numerous examples where an RO has chosen to advise the shooter that they "went right to the 180" where in truth they may have been at 181.

The safety record of our sport is good because we have the strictest safety regime of any shooting discipline. If we make some safety infractions "cheaper" to commit, then we alter the cost-benefit ratio of certain actions. As an RO and a competitor, I would be concerned about the unintended consequences of relaxing the rules in this area.

[Jim Norman]

To address what I perceive as the intent of the OP...

What we really need to do here is to design courses that don't put the shooter into a position where he is likely to earn a DQ (leave stage or match aside for the moment) due to the design of the COF.

There are still going to be certain instances where we have situations that are shall we say on teh line.

Shooter is required to start with a long gun, go to a roll-over prone position and engage a certain number of targets, ground his now safed or empty long gun, draw his pistol, rack a round in and start shooting additional targets. Maybe he only needs to sling the long gun with the gun empty. During the prone portion the as yet 'loaded' gun falls out of his holster.

Current rule says Match DQ. Suggestion is that since we have not loaded the gun and the RO from the previous stage has supposedly cleared the shooter as having an empty gun, that we should not issue a Match DQ, but rather a Stage DQ. In the case of the long gun, gun is bunkered, still loaded, but the safety is left off or knocked off. Gun is pointed into a safe direction and no one is allowed to or the stage is arranged so no one can pass in front of the bunkered gun. Stage DQ? Match DQ? Current rules generally call for a Match DQ. There is no 'mainstream' allowance for a Stage DQ.

What if the shooter slings his long gun. supposed to be EMPTY. He fires round to clear gun and then drops mag. (Oops, got it backwards didn't he) Match DQ, Stage DQ? Does it matter if the safety is applied?

A lot of situations can be answered with stage design and order of engagement, some cannot. Not without materially changing the face of Multi-gun to something we don't want to have. Ex. Shooter starts prone, pistol is no longer unloaded in holster, but staged where the Long gun is to be bunkered. Eliminates the question of the muzzle pointing up range and also the chance of dropping the gun at this point in the match.

We start to look like we have two sets of RO defined rules if we are not careful. If my holstered pistol, holster and all falls off my person Stage DQ, if the gun falls out of the holster UNLOADED, stage DQ, but if it is in my hand UNLOADED and I drop it, what then? I think we all probably agree that dropping a loaded gun is a Match DQ (Hopefully)

What about the guy who has multiple stage DQ situations? When do we deem him DQ'd from the match? Keep in mind, he commits no infraction under the new rules that gets him a match DQ. Do we have an additional rule where you get one Stage DQ, but more than that and the next is a Match DQ? How does the RO on Saturday know that you had the Stage DQ on Thursday? Or on a stage earlier in the same day? Yes we can achieve this in some manner that doesn't add too much burden to the staff. Or do you get unlimited Stage DQ's? Hey great match, 11 stages and I DQ'd 11 times!

Not trying to answer, just trying to get a handle on the direction we are looking here.

We all agree it sucks to drive or fly half across the country only to shoot a stage or two and then drive home or worse have to wait three or four days to get on your original flight. But it would suck worse to lose everything you own to a lawsuit because we were judged to be lax in application of our safety rules.

As for the Liability Waiver. Not a lawyer here, never played one on TV or even on the Enos Forums, but essentially they are to scare off little old ladies. Generally they are not worth the paper they are written on, especially if the incident was in any way preventable by the staff.

Jim

[00bullitt]

Jim makes many good points.

Rules are one thing and consequence is another. By laxing consequence due to common sense judgement does not put our safety rules in jeopardy. Our rules really don't prevent anything. Its ultimately up to the shooter pressing the trigger to be preventative. You can have all the rules in the world.....but it still takes a level of common sense to apply some of them. Unfortunately interpretation is subjective.