bigbrowndog Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Or at least what I think is common sense??????????? I have seen stages designed where the competitor has 2 guns to use, pistol/SG. Somewhere during the SG portion the competitor is required to get into a low port, and this allows the pistol to become jostled and exit the holster If the pistol is chamber empty?? and we know it is because the stage start description calls for it, why would we DQ the competitor, why not simply allow them to pick it up reholster and continue with the COF???? More importantly why design a stage where the possibility of this happening is increased???? We routinely place safe weapons in boxes, buckets, tables, and proceed downrange to score or continue shooting, why if we KNOW a gun is chamber empty do we instantly DQ someone???????? Especially for something that could easily have been avoided with better stage design, or a little more forethought. I am not refering to USPSA, those rules are set in stone, and to argue thte point would be fruitless. i am speaking about other matches where more common sense and leeway is allowed. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Or at least what I think is common sense???????????I have seen stages designed where the competitor has 2 guns to use, pistol/SG. Somewhere during the SG portion the competitor is required to get into a low port, and this allows the pistol to become jostled and exit the holster If the pistol is chamber empty?? and we know it is because the stage start description calls for it, why would we DQ the competitor, why not simply allow them to pick it up reholster and continue with the COF???? More importantly why design a stage where the possibility of this happening is increased???? We routinely place safe weapons in boxes, buckets, tables, and proceed downrange to score or continue shooting, why if we KNOW a gun is chamber empty do we instantly DQ someone???????? Especially for something that could easily have been avoided with better stage design, or a little more forethought. I am not refering to USPSA, those rules are set in stone, and to argue thte point would be fruitless. i am speaking about other matches where more common sense and leeway is allowed. trapr make it simple, trapr-why carry the pistol...stage it somewhere and eliminate the handgun getting dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 If the gun is verified unloaded at the start of the stage, I tend to not think it should be a DQ. However I do think that people should use equipment that adequately retains their sidearm while moving throughout a stage; I'd give them a 60 second penalty for using equipment that sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I respectfully disagree. On this point, USPSA/IPSC has it right. Any dropped gun is out of the competitors control, and the fact that it does not point in a dangerous direction is pure luck. The first rule I teach every new shooter is "A Gun Is Always Loaded". Sinistral is right about holster design - multigunners should be using holsters that provide more retention than is encountered in a typical USPSA pistol match. In most multigun stages, adding an extra 0.25 seconds to the draw time is not going to have a significant impact on the match outcome. When I design stages, I try to give the competitor a few steps between abandoning their long-gun and where they have to start shooting their pistol. I also take extra care not to require a pistol-packing competitor to put their pistol retention in jeopardy by rolling around on the floor, and I never require a holstered pistol to be unloaded or chamber empty in the holster (why would anyone do that in the real world ?). If a pistol is not required on a stage, a wise competitor will take it off... if they don't, and bad things happen, they have nobody to blame but themselves . Edited November 23, 2009 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Trapr, YOU DQ'd me for this very thing last year at FB3G. And no, I'm not mad at you about it. I do still have nightmares about it, and take it out on my family at least weekly, but you shouldn't feel guilty about a solid year of abuse that they get!! And in all seriousnous, you were just following the posted rules, and they clearly stated that what happened was a DQ, and so it was. To be absolutely honest, I have never felt a sinking feeling that was deeper than that, when I felt something odd let go from my belt, and looked over and saw that para laying there. It was a lesson learned for me, I just wish it happened at a local match instead. Everybody knows the $$ you spend to go to a match like Benning, and all the fun you miss as you quickly become a spectator. I guess the rule is there for safety, and I know people can say that "technically" the gun isn't loaded since it doesn't have a round in the chamber, but the bottom line is that we need to be safe. If we did have some sort of AD back toward the rear, it would only help shut that match down, and no one wants that. That match is too much fun and has too many cool toys to risk because of a bone headed mistake. I should have had the screws on my holster tighter. I should have checked it better. I overlooked a small detail, and it bit me-but it should read, I bit myself. Anyway, just my .02. I still had a good time hanging out with my buds and meeting all the nice people on my squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ammo Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I agree trapr..... Common Sense... should be used,,, this is a case by case situation. That the RO and match Director. have to be on the same page about. Jim M ammo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccrock Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Especially for something that could easily have been avoided with better stage design, or a little more forethought. I have no problem with better stage design. A broader question is, how much do we want to dumb down a course of fire? My "3-gun" holster has much better retention than my USPSA pistol holster, because I know there are more motions in a 3-gun match. Maybe we should mention retention when a new shooter asks "what holster to use". stage it somewhere and eliminate the handgun getting dirty I don't think Trapr intends "drop pistol in dirt" to be part of the course of fire. I get nervous if I see the muzzle of a gun even if I "know" it is unloaded, and especially nervous if the clock is running and the shooter is fumbling to pick up the dropped gun. Drop gun, do not break 180, I am less nervous. Ok, I am going to the garage to check my holster now. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 This is how we test holsters and cardio vascular conditioning out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrxjMSRa1Ls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSQrWEcbc1E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Jumping jacks are all cool and everything...but try hitting the deck "broke back prone" with a 21rd .40mag in your para. Can hear that DOH screaming from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shooter Steve, what kind of holster were you using if I may ask? I don't like the idea of staging a handgun. We still try to hold on to the "Practical" part of our sport for the most part, which is why we wear holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shooter Steve, what kind of holster were you using if I may ask? I don't like the idea of staging a handgun. We still try to hold on to the "Practical" part of our sport for the most part, which is why we wear holsters. we stage long guns. so why not sling them and hump them around as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 we stage long guns. so why not sling them and hump them around as well? Sounds like a good idea to me, and I have been to matches where they do just that. Even if you don't need it on that stage. RM3G and Ironman have both included stages where long gun was slung to be employed later in the stage. Tiger Valley Team match made us carry them even if we weren't using them on some stages. Ironman had hot transitions back and forth between shotgun and pistol and rifle and pistol several years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shooting a DOH, which works pretty good when you have the screws at the proper tension. I had them all loose because of all the pistol only matches I'd been shooting. Wasn't the holsters fault....You have to be smarter than the screw, or you get.....not going there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Stage design is one thing. A dropped gun is another. Common sense shouldn't confuse the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shooting a DOH, which works pretty good when you have the screws at the proper tension. I had them all loose because of all the pistol only matches I'd been shooting. Wasn't the holsters fault....You have to be smarter than the screw, or you get.....not going there! Steve, Good on you for accepting the personal responsibility for your gear and it's ability to do it's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 We routinely place safe weapons in boxes, buckets, tables, and proceed downrange to score or continue shooting, why if we KNOW a gun is chamber empty do we instantly DQ someone???????? Especially for something that could easily have been avoided with better stage design, or a little more forethought. Trapr, are guns ever unloaded? Staged guns are far different from slung or holstered guns. If someone drops a gun during a course of fire, that could be an early warning sign that the person shouldn't be playing today. I value the physical and psychological health of all on a range, and I'd prefer that my friends and comrades not get sued.... Prevention is the name of the game...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Dog Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 allow me to ask a question; dropped or not, where is the muzzel of a holstered handgun pointing when the shooter is in the prone postions? I will answer for you. It is pointing directly at the RO and the spectators. I vote VERY poor stage design. I also vote to DQ the shooter. It shouldnt fall out. Yankee Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 Russell the 60 seconds for sucky equipment would have to be given to everyone at some time Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shooter Steve, what kind of holster were you using if I may ask? I don't like the idea of staging a handgun. We still try to hold on to the "Practical" part of our sport for the most part, which is why we wear holsters. we stage long guns. so why not sling them and hump them around as well? At the Blue Ridge, we had at least 3 stages that started w/ a slung rifle or shotgun and pistol targets were the first to engage. Any slung gun had to have an empty chamber. I really enjoyed these stages because shooting a handgun w/ a longarm slung and bouncing back and forth is considerably more challenging than just shooting a handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I have liked the stage DQ penalty that has shown up at some matches recently. Its still a DQ.....but from the stage. Basically that shooter receives a zero for the stage. Consequence may not be as bad as a match DQ....but its still bad. I think there are plenty of instances where a stage DQ would be more appropriate than a match DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I also like the stage DQ approach to some infractions. IF you are going to assess a severe penalty for dropping an unloaded weapon, a stage DQ seems appropriate. Stages which involve or require a shooter to go prone with a holstered handgun are not necessarily examples of poor stage design. Neither are stages that require slung weapons. In 3-gun competition, movement with a holstered handgun, including going into a port, walking, running, climbing, crawling, and almost anything else, should not only be accepted, it should be expected. The equipment requirements for all 3-gun matches that I am aware of require that holsters must completely cover the trigger and be capable of retaining the handgun during the vigorous movement that may be required or otherwise encountered during the courses of fire. As stated earlier in this discussion, it is the shooter's personal responsibility to make sure their holster is appropriate and functions correctly. While slightly off the subject, the same is true of making sure one's safety is on when abandoning a hot weapon. It is not the responsibility of the match to provide a container for abandonment into which a competitor can toss/throw their pistol without disengaging the safety. It is up to the shooter to make sure his/her weapon is resting in the appropriate location and condition. All 3-gun matches are “works in progress” from year to year, and the vast majority are changing in positive ways; both in stage design and rules. These discussions often help that progress. Some do, some are …….. well, tiring. This is a good one! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Dog Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 .............................................Stages which involve or require a shooter to go prone with a holstered handgun are not necessarily examples of poor stage design. Neither are stages that require slung weapons. In 3-gun competition, movement with a holstered handgun, including going into a port, walking, running, climbing, crawling, and almost anything else, should not only be accepted, it should be expected........................................Andy I would say that matches/stages that will require vigorous movement should also require an equally vigorous hoster check before each individual begins the stage. to do otherwise is negligent. Consider that a holster check done prior to starting the stage is only embarrasing should a weapon come loose. To loose a weapon between "Load and Make Ready" and "Range is Clear" is a DQ. It is a serious infraction and the punishment should be equally serious. yankee Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 +1 on stage DQ's versus match DQ's. I've witnessed both, unfortunately. Simply put, so many of us have a greater financial outlay in setting up for and then getting to large matches that it is such a great disappointment to see it happen much less have it happen to the shooter. DQ a stage and you still get that burning fire in the pit of your stomach from knowing you just committed a major party foul compounded by the fact that you did it in front of your new best friends. But... your weekend aint over yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 +1 on the Stage DQ when appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 +1 on stage DQ's versus match DQ's. I've witnessed both, unfortunately. Simply put, so many of us have a greater financial outlay in setting up for and then getting to large matches that it is such a great disappointment to see it happen much less have it happen to the shooter. DQ a stage and you still get that burning fire in the pit of your stomach from knowing you just committed a major party foul compounded by the fact that you did it in front of your new best friends. But... your weekend aint over yet... So you're saying that money and a weekend of fun should trump the safety of the competitors at a match? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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