cold Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) A buddy and I were talking about this a few weeks ago on the phone, why isn't there a dedicated multi gun/ 3 gun org akin to USPSA? I know there is a IMGA (or whatever its called) however I do not see it being applied to matches like that of USPSA/IPSC. Nor do I see a IMGA subscription program like that of USPSA. Would it be that difficult? I am sure it would take a lot of effort, but would it be that hard to pull off? By my count there are at least 4 different rules structures out there. Are we just content with the way things are? Or simply to lazy to form something structured? Im also a bit bored at the office this morning and thinking of multi gun over bond hearings. Edited November 5, 2009 by cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Cold, i think the #1 reason is because there is no incentive for the other matches to belong to a centralized association. they do not NEED someone to tell them how to do a good match or provide anything for them. Its kind of like, your parents, at a certain point you don't NEED them to tell you how to act or behave or go about your business. And like that you develop your OWN way of accomplishing what you need to accomplish, and based on your own experiences those ways may be different from how someone else does it, so why would you want someone else telling you how to do things if you've already got it figured out. and if you have a problem or encounter a new problem you already have a venue to get answers, you can ask other MD's, because for the most part we all want each other to prosper. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I agree with Trapr. What the NRA is now attempting to do is show the various matches that they all have something in common and that they need to unite in some respects to make sure their mutual needs are protected. That effort is going to be successful. Will that evolve into something more to include common rules and scoring? I am not going to hold my breath. Shooters are a pretty independent by nature and of the shooting communicty, the muitigun folks are the most independent of the bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I like the different matches with the different rules. Thats why they call them outlaw matches. If we all came under one umbrella, the matches would go down hill quick in my opinion. The other good thing is it doesnt take an act of god to change the rules. If the MD decides to change a rule, he does it. Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Abn- I completely agree! You'll never hear a MD say "we can't do that because of rule 10.2.4(B)7 exception II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. ROTFLMAO!!! Best line I've heard this week!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Silly Kids All the outlaw MD guys should get together...sit down and hash this out No reason for any one rule set or scoring system to be imposed on all...just come together under one name or group. These are times for folks to come together for the benefit of all...and lend support to the whole community of 3 gun shooters. The NRA sees the need to lend itself to give 3 gun an umbrella of support..and a level of acceptence ...even some protection! No need to be told how to do it ...just a body that includes it all. Cmon people...we need some unity here!...not in scoring or targets or rules...just as people with a passion for 3 gun. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I see the NRA's involvement a little different. I think they see how 3 gun is growing and are trying to get on the bandwagon. I think it will be a benefit for NRA to be involved, but I think they need us worse than we need them. After all, air rifle matches and bullseye aren't exactly the growing shooting sports anymore, are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I like the different matches with the different rules. Thats why they call them outlaw matches. If we all came under one umbrella, the matches would go down hill quick in my opinion. The other good thing is it doesnt take an act of god to change the rules. If the MD decides to change a rule, he does it. Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. I think only one group calls them "outlaw". You can't be an outlaw match if you were there first. An outlaw pistol club for example uses USPSA rules, but doesn't belong let alone pay the activity fees to USPSA. USPSA is a johnny-come-lately in 3-gun isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I see the NRA's involvement a little different. I think they see how 3 gun is growing and are trying to get on the bandwagon. I think it will be a benefit for NRA to be involved, but I think they need us worse than we need them. After all, air rifle matches and bullseye aren't exactly the growing shooting sports anymore, are they? Matches of any kind are about the least of what NRA does...and they dont need US in any way The support they are giving us may be more important than you assume Do a little research see what they really do Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I see the NRA's involvement a little different. I think they see how 3 gun is growing and are trying to get on the bandwagon. I think it will be a benefit for NRA to be involved, but I think they need us worse than we need them. After all, air rifle matches and bullseye aren't exactly the growing shooting sports anymore, are they? Matches of any kind are about the least of what NRA does...and they dont need US in any way The support they are giving us may be more important than you assume Do a little research see what they really do Jim I think the NRA sees multigun as an established, legitimate, civilian use of the Black (assault) Rifle in the "tactical" high capacity form!! Might need some examples for Congressmen down the road ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I think the NRA sees multigun as an established, legitimate, civilian use of the Black (assault) Rifle in the"tactical" high capacity form!! Might need some examples for Congressmen down the road ?? Bingo! Advance to Go and collect $200.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnGaultsGun Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I like the different matches with the different rules. Thats why they call them outlaw matches. If we all came under one umbrella, the matches would go down hill quick in my opinion. The other good thing is it doesnt take an act of god to change the rules. If the MD decides to change a rule, he does it. Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. And here I thought it was a prize table thing ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Silly Kids All the outlaw MD guys should get together...sit down and hash this out No reason for any one rule set or scoring system to be imposed on all...just come together under one name or group. These are times for folks to come together for the benefit of all...and lend support to the whole community of 3 gun shooters. The NRA sees the need to lend itself to give 3 gun an umbrella of support..and a level of acceptence ...even some protection! No need to be told how to do it ...just a body that includes it all. Cmon people...we need some unity here!...not in scoring or targets or rules...just as people with a passion for 3 gun. Jim I respectfully disagree. What unity do you speek of if not for standardizing rule sets, scoring systems etc.??? Just for a common name??? It might start as that but would eventualy morf into a structured entity. I like the individualizm that the different venues and rule sets that are out there bring to each 3-gun match. I would hate to see it get watered down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I like the different matches with the different rules. Thats why they call them outlaw matches. If we all came under one umbrella, the matches would go down hill quick in my opinion. The other good thing is it doesnt take an act of god to change the rules. If the MD decides to change a rule, he does it. Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. And here I thought it was a prize table thing ... Good point, but I think the reason the prize tables are so good at outlaw matches is because of the sell outs. The sponsors know they will reach more people at outlaw matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Successful "endeavors" adapt to the needs of it's membership/clientele, IF USPSA has ANY hope of being a force in 3Gun, they need to step back and see what is working (rulewise) and adapt. Sorry guys/girls, but it is a simple business plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 You will have more success herding cats than getting all the outlaw match directors on the same page. It's too bad as I think we could use a standardized rule book and equipment rules. On the flip side, having various groups putting on matches does lend itself to creativity. But kudos to the NRA and all the MDs who have at least coordinated under the NRA's banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Preserve the core and stimulate progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) I'm with Mark on this. Three gunning does not need a governing body or one single rule book. The best (memorable) matches are when the rules are simple, stages challenge the average shooter, and fun for all (balanced). The NRA survives on numbers which are very important when standing up to challenges. They also provide many (too many to list) other benefits as well - if you have been to the NRA WC Range near Raton you will understand, its a great example. Edited November 7, 2009 by Sterling White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I like the different matches with the different rules. Thats why they call them outlaw matches. If we all came under one umbrella, the matches would go down hill quick in my opinion. The other good thing is it doesnt take an act of god to change the rules. If the MD decides to change a rule, he does it. Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. I think only one group calls them "outlaw". You can't be an outlaw match if you were there first. An outlaw pistol club for example uses USPSA rules, but doesn't belong let alone pay the activity fees to USPSA. USPSA is a johnny-come-lately in 3-gun isn't it? No USPSA and IPSC have had 3gun for years. I shot 3gun under IPSC rules since the early 90's. WE got started late with multigun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Silly Kids All the outlaw MD guys should get together...sit down and hash this out No reason for any one rule set or scoring system to be imposed on all...just come together under one name or group. These are times for folks to come together for the benefit of all...and lend support to the whole community of 3 gun shooters. The NRA sees the need to lend itself to give 3 gun an umbrella of support..and a level of acceptence ...even some protection! No need to be told how to do it ...just a body that includes it all. Cmon people...we need some unity here!...not in scoring or targets or rules...just as people with a passion for 3 gun. Jim +1 Jim Just think about all those under utilized AR15's and tactical shotguns that have been purchased since the last administration change. I have 6 personally. Those guns and their owners should be shooting 3 gun! A centralized organization with some marketing dollars could get them involved. Yesterday I was the match director for a local match that included 41 shooters. Every shooter but me was a first timer and I have only been shooting since August! Most of the guys have never even shot an ipsc or idpa match. So where do new shooters go to learn about 3 gun? The Enos forum is all I have found which is wonderful. But this is a forum where anyone can be an expert and give advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Chris, I remember a match by SOF, in the early eighties!!! so if early 90's is when USPSA got into the game then they were still late!!! As for the NRA and US, I was a bit surprised when I read the requirement form they send out to receive thier approval. I would have a hard time agreeing to the requirements personally!!!! but then I tend to read most forms, rather than take someones word for the content. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Yesterday I was the match director for a local match that included 41 shooters. Every shooter but me was a first timer and I have only been shooting since August! Most of the guys have never even shot an ipsc or idpa match. Jesse - That's awesome however I bet it was a little crazy trying keep things going. If you need help with stage designs give me a shout. I have some tucked away in a ppt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Chris, I remember a match by SOF, in the early eighties!!! so if early 90's is when USPSA got into the game then they were still late!!!As for the NRA and US, I was a bit surprised when I read the requirement form they send out to receive thier approval. I would have a hard time agreeing to the requirements personally!!!! but then I tend to read most forms, rather than take someones word for the content. Trapr That's when I started, not sure how long uspsa/ipsc was doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Thats why you see outlaw matches selling out and the USPSA nationals petering out. ROTFLMAO!!! Best line I've heard this week!!! Ken Seriously? Are you really are so bent out of shape about USPSA that you find enjoyment in that. What, did someone with a USPSA sticker on their truck run over your dog as a kid? USPSA does not have the luxury of being able to change the rules to suit whatever we want at a whim. We are trying to have a set of rules that can be used by all of our clubs to run 3 gun matches. We are not just one match. Believe it or not there are clubs and ranges that need to be part of an org like USPSA in order to even have a match at their range. The constant nit picking and gloating over any issues we have had trying to get our rules to work is really not productive for anyone. I don't shoot cowboy, international Trap or IDPA but I hope they are successful in promoting their particular diciplines. Why do you and a few others on these forums seem so dedicated to our failure? If you don't like USPSA then don't shoot the matches. I like the non uspsa 3guns and shoot them and support them. Why can't you guys do the same or at least don't trash us. There is room for all of us. To answer the origional question in this thread, there is an org dedicated to 3gun/multigun. It is called the United States Practical Shooting Association. By the way we are also dedicated to practical pistol, steel challenge and support the efforts of any organization dedicated to any shooting sport. United we stand Divided we fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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