Vince Pinto Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hi folks, An issue which we've never addressed in the rules is an "Unloading Area" - an area designated for competitors arriving at a match with a loaded CCW gun to unload without penalty. Remember that, according to our safety rules, if you enter the range environs with a loaded gun, you're subject to a match DQ. Obviously people cannot enter a regular Safety Area with a loaded gun, so it occurred to me that we should encourage match organisers to provide a small unloading facility, to obviate the need for people to handle their guns inside their cars etc. To that end, would something like this work?: 2.6 Unloading/Loading Station 2.6.1 If it is likely that some competitors may arrive at a range where an IPSC match is being held while they are in possession of a loaded firearm on their person (e.g. law enforcement officers etc.), match organisers should provide an Unloading/Loading Station, to enable such competitors to safely unload their firearms prior to entering the range, and to safely load their firearms again on departure from the range. The Unloading/Loading Station should be conveniently located outside the entrance to the range (or outside the portion of the range allocated to the IPSC match), it should be clearly sign-marked and it should include a suitable impact zone. Revision 1: Text in blue above Revision 2: Text in red above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Sounds like an excellent idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 It's a great idea to add such a recommendation. I would nix the part about it being before the entrance to the range because a lot of clubs won't be able to handle the logistics. If you want to keep it, I would make it clear that it's a suggestion and offer some others. I think most clubs have the person go to one of the shooting bays with an RO to unload. Regardless of whether or not it's within the current rules, it's probably the safest and more easily controlled ways to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Well, Vince, ya know, my teammate Guglielmo would have been veeeeery happy for this rule, since he was the fastest DQ I've ever witnessed... He showed up to a league match, walked through the stage, entered the starting box as first competitor on that first stage, and, when required to LAMR, he pulled his Glock 17 from his bag. Much to everybody's surprise, the gun was already in ready condition (I mean mag inserted and round chambered), because later he confessed he got home from work late at night and forgot to unload his gun, just bagged it as it was. DQed without even being asked "are you ready"... If there will ever be a Guinnes book for IPSC shooting he'd gain first place. I think the unloading area could be a good idea, but it would open a whole lot new issues: if the unloading (and then loading, for CCW holders to pack at the end of the match) area is outside of the Range, I can figure out Rhino has a point in assuming not all the ranges would have the appropriate area. If the unloading area is inside the range the unloading/loading process would require at least a RO assistance, which is quite impossible at the starting phase of a match (they are already too busy). Don't get me wrong, I think it's a clever idea, but it has to be elaborated, to cover all the possible issues raising from its application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 What is the call on, say, a loaded gun in the glove compartment? Let's say that is where you keep one, or prior to entering a range you put your carry gun in there? (Assuming you are using a different... unloaded gun for the match). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I don't think it is a bad idea, but I think it would better to keep it "don't ask, don't tell". I know I just leave mine in the car, but I don't shoot my carry gun. If someone does shoot their carry gun they need to be aware and unload it prior to arriving at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Here is my take on this. There is no need for RO supervision as long as the unload area is set up properly. I have been to many ranges and "secure facilities" with a load unload bin for people to use,and seem to recall a large pile of sand in SA for that purpose. The match area for rules purposes does not have to include all of the range complex , so maybe it should be written that they "go directly to the area and unload immediately on arrival" Bear in mind that only competitors have to unload not spectators etc. and lets not forget an unloaded carry gun is a club james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Vince, It's a nice idea, but I don't think it's necessary. If you shoot your carry gun, unload it before you come to the range or before you get out of your vehicle. If you don't shoot your carry gun, leave it in your vehicle. No harm done. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Providing a designated unloading area is a significant safety improvement, as competitors will be standing, facing an impoact zone, with their entire concentration on unloading/loading (Be sure the rule encompasses reloading upon leaving). Many of the clubs in Massachusetts already have such a policy (sometimes it's "report to any RO who will take you to a berm to clear your gun" - and yes, I know that's technically not supportable by the current rules). Despite a bad reputation and absurd limitations on what you can buy (no 1911 unless the name begins with an "S" - S&W and SVI only) carry permits are widely available in most communities and good statewide in MA. Absent such a rule, competitors will need to unload "discretely", which often means while seated in their car - ackward postion to unholster, no specific impact zone, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Sorry Vince but it is not a good idea. Our sport is as safe as it is because of our cold range policy and it should stay that way. If you get out of your vehicle before you enter the range and unload then you are not breaking any "cold range" rules anyway because the rules only apply on the range property. If you set an area like this up on range property then there is to much room for people to push it. How many folks are we going to have standing around an "unload area" doing draws with loaded mags in thier guns for accurate weight etc. etc. It just leaves to much room for a big OOPS! OH! Smitty, I doen't shoot my carry gun either, It makes to expensive a target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 28, 2003 Author Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hi guys, Thanks for the feedback. I've revised the rule above and I believe the words "on their person" deals with Bucky's concerns. Remember that this proposed rule is an advisory. Our existing rules already cover loaded guns found within the range environs, but I'd hope that the guidance provided by this proposed rule will encourage match organisers to go the extra mile to make the range area even safer. Like many other things in IPSC shooting, I prefer to make a statement, even if it's only an advisory, rather than be silent on an important issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 What is the call on, say, a loaded gun in the glove compartment? Let's say that is where you keep one, or prior to entering a range you put your carry gun in there? (Assuming you are using a different... unloaded gun for the match). That's very similar to what I do. If you're not on the range, neither USPSA, nor the club, nor anyone else associated with the game has any jurisdiction over you. That way you don't have to unload your carry gun. And the "don't ask; don't tell" principle is probably the best way to go too. Oops! I just told! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Thanks for the feedback. I've revised the rule above and I believe the words "on their person" deals with Bucky's concerns. The revisions are a big improvement. I would add "If possible" to the beginning of the last sentence, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Our sport is as safe as it is because of our cold range policy Don't know that I agree. Treat them like they are always loaded, and I have no problem with a hot range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 Vinny - Two thumbs up. Those, like me, who shoot carry guns are just sneakily unloading in the car or in the trunk - or leaving a second piece loaded in the car. (A second piece in the glovebox is not a problem at secure ranges, but a huge concern when parking your car out in public place. I'd rather just be allowed to unload my carry gun safely and not leave a gun to steal.) While I fully support the concept of a cold range during a match, the notion that a "cold range" means that nobody has a loaded gun on their way in is baloney and we all know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 Around here it is very rare for the IPSC match to "own" the entire range on match day. There are always people coming and going to the public areas. Competitors go there and load/unload as needed or get an RO to help before the match. This behavior needs to be specifically supported (a "you must unload outside the range" rule could lead to a 'failure to conceal' criminal charge if you're unlucky). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted November 29, 2003 Share Posted November 29, 2003 Good thought, Shred. Especially in Texas. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 29, 2003 Author Share Posted November 29, 2003 Hi guys, Good points - see Revision 2 on the first page. Another person emailed me privately to remind me that CCW guns are a sensitive issue in some IPSC regions, so I added the "e.g. law enforcement officers etc." wording to deal with that issue - of course the "etc." deals with everybody else You guys are great - thanks to all for the input. BTW, this is exactly how IPSC rules are written. Somebody starts with a basic concept, everybody else raises valid points, and we "tweak" the proposed rule until everybody is happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Hello all, just back from a Thanksgiving road trip (1300 miles, 15,000 calories, 172 photos, and one linoleum floor laid for my in-laws) and i'm tired. The idea of an unloading zone came up around here five minutes after Michigan changed to Shall Issue. As a result, we built the "Hot Zone." If you are legally carrying with a CCW or badge, go to the Hot Zone and unload before going to your first stage. (Our club is all-IPSC, and the matches take over the whole range.) Once you're done for the day, go back and reload. The sole purpose of the Hot Zone is loading and unloading. It is a club-rule DQ to be in there practicing your draws, reloads, or any other BS. Get in, get changed, and get out. We're still in the early stages but we'll report back on how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 The sole purpose of the Hot Zone is loading and unloading. It is a club-rule DQ to be in there practicing your draws, reloads, or any other BS. Get in, get changed, and get out.We're still in the early stages but we'll report back on how it goes. Hmm. I'll try to not threadjack you here but, "club rule"? That means it is not a USPSA/IPSC rule. Was there an abuse of the loading/unloading area or was this a preemptive move? For several years, the area 7 championship has provided a separate loading/unloading area for this purpose without incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Michael, Continuing the thread drift --- Patrick's Hot Zone would not qualify as a USPSA Safety Area (since you're allowed to unload and load a gun with ammo), so unless you're there handling your gun under R.O. supervision, I think you'd be subject to a match D.Q. under USPSA rules..... /thread drift Patrick, sounds well thought out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Hi guys, This is precisely why the "Unloading/Loading Station" should be outside of the area used for the IPSC match. Under existing rules, competitors cannot be in possession of a loaded gun except when under starter's orders (i.e. after LAMR is given at the start of a COF), and you cannot handle ammo in a safety area. Patrick's club (and Area 7) did exactly as this new rule proposes - they provided a "Hot Zone" for the convenience of those arriving at the match with a loaded firearm. All I'm trying to do with the proposed new rule is to provide match organisers who don't already provide such a facility a reminder to consider doing so, to obviate "in car" handling of loaded guns, and to give them some guidance on how to handle the matter so that, hopefully, it will become an SOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 I'd have to check the exact rule in the book, but we used the "club defined unsafe procedure" rule. The same one we use to explaint to shooters that they must stay under our baffles in order to engage the targets. The "Hot Zone" is by its definition not part of the match ranges, and therefore not requiring an RO for gun handling. If it were, there would be no reason for it, and we'd simply direct arrivees to the ranges to be watched by an RO. What we found was that the RO's were too busy each morning getting their stage squared away to deal with a steady stream of arivees looking to divest themselves of their carry guns. And waiting until the match start to unload en mass meant they couldn't put on their stage gear. As I said, it is still new and we'll see how it goes. We did it to avoid the "trunk safe area" or "drivers contortion unload" that we knew some ccw holders were going through each match. We figured that if we had a procedure, location and method, we could avoid unpleasantries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now