2009 Postal

[grizzlywon]

Just shot the Postal match and have to say a few things.

First off, I am very grateful for the postal match. I think it is a great way to have a national match with no extra cost to shooters. I think USPSA should have one too! But I have a hunch neither one of these assosiations will ever admit they can learn anything from each other. Oh well.

The stages this year were good, but were a little odd. All of the targets were laid out to be 4'-3.5' tall! We were shooting the floor of our range all night. What was this year a "little person" shoot? I don't get it. Most targets I have shot are about 5-6' to the top.

Secondly on stage 1, "Table Games" the CO states, Started seated with gun holstered holding cards (a deck of cards). http://www.idpa.com/09PostalMatch/Postal09.pdf

I wanted to start with cards in my left hand and my right hand on my gun. But was told I couldn't. So i asked if I could start the same way with my hand over the gun and was told no. This vagueness in the description makes me mad. I know that other clubs will shoot this differently and this is just simply stupid to not be more detailed in such a match.

IDPA is famous for being so ridged and yet they leave the door wide open on this stage. All they had to say was both hands holding cards over table.

Another really weird stage was stage 2 where there was a all black hardcover target that as far as I could tell had absolutely no purpose whatsoever! I helped set up the stage and the target was useless. It didn't obstruct the view of any target. And if you used barrels it was not needed? Weird!

One more thing about this stage and the "table games" one too. It kept calling for Tactical sequence. Even when the targets were staggered and it would make more sense to shoot the closest one twice and then the next furthest and so on. Usually when we shoot Tactical sequence, the targets are at the same distance away from the shooter, not staggered, otherwise you shoot them in tactical priority. This isn't just our club because we shoot stages that come from all over the country. Our Pres does a good job using other clubs stages and this was different. Is this going to become the rule? This is not a big deal, just kind of weird once again. I'd like to see some more consistency on this.

Lastly on stage 3 you start out 2' from cover facing up range. On signal you turn and draw and engage targets two targets while on the move to cover or from behind cover. While on the move to cover 2' away! By the time I turned around (I pivoted on my left foot) I ended up basically behind cover. In major IDPA matches the SO's love to yell at you even if you are moving. Moving depends on whatever they feel like. In my experience, 1mph is not fast enough, but about 3+mph is OKAY? Depends on the SO. To me moving is moving.

I understand some clubs are indoor and very limited in how wide the stages can be, but 2' just doesn't make since! Especially if you are going to say "while on the move." How about 2 yards and you can shoot two targets while getting to cover if you are a decent shooter. Just a thought. I am sure the 2' cause many shooters to stop or move really slow once again causing inconsistency.

Once again this isn't meant to be a bash on IDPA, I love IDPA. I also love the idea of the Postal match. I'd just like to see these improvements made and then the USPSA do its own postal match. (hint: change the name, so they won't know you are copying them)

Edited September 17, 2009 by grizzlywon

[Steve J]

Just shot the Postal match and have to say a few things. Another really weird stage was stage 2 where there was a all black hardcover target that as far as I could tell had absolutely no purpose whatsoever! I helped set up the stage and the target was useless. It didn't obstruct the view of any target. And if you used barrels it was not needed? Weird!

Not weird at all. The hardcover target makes up for the difference in width between a thin wall and barrels. The barrels hide targets. Without them the hardcover target serves the same purpose. They were just trying to give clubs a set up option if they didn't have barrels. The original stage used barrels as I understand.

[Steve J]

Secondly on stage 1, "Table Games" the CO states, Started seated with gun holstered holding cards (a deck of cards). http://www.idpa.com/09PostalMatch/Postal09.pdf

I wanted to start with cards in my left hand and my right hand on my gun. But was told I couldn't. So i asked if I could start the same way with my hand over the gun and was told no. This vagueness in the description makes me mad. I know that other clubs will shoot this differently and this is just simply stupid to not be more detailed in such a match.

IDPA is famous for being so ridged and yet they leave the door wide open on this stage. All they had to say was both hands holding cards over table.

From the Postal Match FAQ page http://www.idpapostalmatch.com/FAQ.html

11.) Question: How do I hold a hand of cards in stage 1. Can I have my strong hand on the gun?

Answer: Both hands are on the cards. You may not reach for your gun before the start signal.

It would appear that the people running your postal match were well informed. You simply were not.

[grizzlywon]

I see what you are saying, but why not make the wall longer? solves the problem and doesn't make a difference even compared to a stage with barrels.

Edited September 17, 2009 by grizzlywon

[Steve J]

One more thing about this stage and the "table games" one too. It kept calling for Tactical sequence. Even when the targets were staggered and it would make more sense to shoot the closest one twice and then the next furthest and so on. Usually when we shoot Tactical sequence, the targets are at the same distance away from the shooter, not staggered, otherwise you shoot them in tactical priority. This isn't just our club because we shoot stages that come from all over the country. Our Pres does a good job using other clubs stages and this was different. Is this going to become the rule? This is not a big deal, just kind of weird once again. I'd like to see some more consistency on this.

The stage procedure reads: Engage T1-T3 with 2 shots each in tactical priority (near to far) and tactical sequence (1-1-2-1-1).

That couldn't be more clear and the targets are staggered 6 feet or more apart so it's perfectly within the rules. I understand that some prefer tactical sequence be used on close targets of equal threat; however, if they are 6 feet or more apart you really shouldn't even have to specify both tactical sequence and tactical priority as tactical priority is always implied.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Steve J

[Steve J]

I see what you are saying, but why not make the wall longer? solves the problem and doesn't make a difference even compared to a stage with barrels.

Because that's not the way they did it.

[Steve J]

Lastly on stage 3 you start out 2' from cover facing up range. On signal you turn and draw and engage targets two targets while on the move to cover or from behind cover. While on the move to cover 2' away! By the time I turned around (I pivoted on my left foot) I ended up basically behind cover. In major IDPA matches the SO's love to yell at you even if you are moving. Moving depends on whatever they feel like. In my experience, 1mph is not fast enough, but about 3+mph is OKAY? Depends on the SO. To me moving is moving.

You didn't have to shoot them while moving. The stage procedure gives you the option to go straight to cover and shoot them from cover. To me this would be the preferred way to shoot it.

[grizzlywon]

Lastly on stage 3 you start out 2' from cover facing up range. On signal you turn and draw and engage targets two targets while on the move to cover or from behind cover. While on the move to cover 2' away! By the time I turned around (I pivoted on my left foot) I ended up basically behind cover. In major IDPA matches the SO's love to yell at you even if you are moving. Moving depends on whatever they feel like. In my experience, 1mph is not fast enough, but about 3+mph is OKAY? Depends on the SO. To me moving is moving.

You didn't have to shoot them while moving. The stage procedure gives you the option to go straight to cover and shoot them from cover. To me this would be the preferred way to shoot it.

My point was that it is the only way to shoot it. Unless your draw is .5 with concealment and the SO's let you inch your way to cover, they can't be shot on the move. Well, maybe one shot?

[Chris Christian]

The folks who put on the Postal Match have a tough task. They have to come up with COFs that can be set up easily, and consistently, by a club of any size. They may not be the most interesting, but they are basic skill tests that any club can do. You may not have enjoyed them, but many other shooters (myself included) did. As for shooting the two targets (T-1 & T-2) in the DEA Stage while moving to cover... I found it easy to do, and faster than getting to cover... re-positioning... and then engaging them. Rather than castigate the Postal Match people, I think we should thank them for the hard work they do, and for giving us the opportunity to shoot this type of International match.

Chris Christian

[rledwards]

The folks who put on the Postal Match have a tough task. They have to come up with COFs that can be set up easily, and consistently, by a club of any size. They may not be the most interesting, but they are basic skill tests that any club can do. You may not have enjoyed them, but many other shooters (myself included) did. As for shooting the two targets (T-1 & T-2) in the DEA Stage while moving to cover... I found it easy to do, and faster than getting to cover... re-positioning... and then engaging them. Rather than castigate the Postal Match people, I think we should thank them for the hard work they do, and for giving us the opportunity to shoot this type of International match.

Chris Christian

1+++

[grizzlywon]

Chris, in my club and the others I have shot at (state matches) you would have at least got a warning for not moving fast enough from P1 to cover.

I am not trying to castigate anyone, just pointing out some stuff that as a Master level competitor didn't make since or wasn't consistent with the last 4 years I have shot IDPA, that's all.

Still haven't heard about table games yet.

[Strick]

Chris, in my club and the others I have shot at (state matches) you would have at least got a warning for not moving fast enough from P1 to cover.

I am not trying to castigate anyone, just pointing out some stuff that as a Master level competitor didn't make since or wasn't consistent with the last 4 years I have shot IDPA, that's all.

Still haven't heard about table games yet.

I am not sure what your point is and until the Rulebook clearly states how fast you have to move to be moving you Master level pace on movemnet is not relevant. The COF clearly states, in english, "while moving to OR form cover". Seems that if clubs are going to put on the Postal match they really need to read the COF adn rulebook first.

[Chris Christian]

Grizzlywon,

I did not recieve a warning on shooting T-1 and T-2 on the DEA stage while moving to cover. The SO running the timer was a Five-Gun Master. He understands the Rules. The targets were only 12 feet down range. I had no problem (shooting ESP EX) doing an El Prex piviot... taking a step towards the barricade... double tapping T-1 with my foot in the air... and double tapping T-2 as my second foot came down behind the barricade. I suspect that any other MA or EX class shooter wouldn't have any difficulty with that at all. It's not a major feat. It just require a skill level commesurate with ones current Classification.

Movement is movement... the COF said shoot while moving. I did. I don't normally draw procedurals. I'm also an SO ( and a CSO at the two clubs I shoot regularly at). In fact, the last procedural I got was at the 2006 Nationals when I forgot the shooting order on a weak hand stage (Bones awarded me that one). None at 2007 and 2008 Nats, or 2009 FL State, or 2008 SC State, or 2008 Postal, or any other sanctioned matches in between. That's a lot of different SOs who have watched me shoot. Can't speak for the SOs you have in your neck of the woods, but I passed muster with those.

Chris Christian

[grizzlywon]

Strick, where does the rulebook state how fast you have to move? (just read it and it says nothing about speed, just how far you can move in a match) I have been at two state matches where shooters were moving and the SO's were telling them to "move" (move faster). I think I agree with you, that moving is moving, and should be viewed that way. But once again its how I have been judged at matches and it's something that I would like to see improved so that there is more consistency.

Chris, I have no doubt that I could have double tapped the targets like you did, but wanted to stay true to how I have been judged in the past at large matches.

I love IDPA, just wish they would get rid of some of these "subjective" terms/rules. I'd like them to say, movement is movement, do not tell a shooter to speed up if they are moving, no matter how slow. As long as they don't stop.

One SO says 1mph is moving. another says 3mph is moving and one mph is not fast enough. I think if there is any movement they are moving, whether it is .01mph or 10! It the course is designed well, it will be an advantage to at least move quickly to the next position.

Just my two cents.

Edited September 22, 2009 by grizzlywon

[robot]

Question. In stage 1 - Table Games , were we supposed to sit down the whole time? or can we stand after the buzzer goes off?

here's a video of my squad running through Table Games at our local IDPA match last weekend :

And videos for the other Postal stages :

- DEA combat course :

- Brain Fade :

- Bangin in the Hood :

[Jane]

Question. In stage 1 - Table Games , were we supposed to sit down the whole time? or can we stand after the buzzer goes off?

From the postal match FAQ page:

http://www.idpapostalmatch.com/FAQ.html

9.) Question: On Stage 1 does the shooter shoot standing or seated?

Answer: This is up to the shooter.

10.) Question: Can the range staff mandate how to shoot Stage 1 in order to comply with range regulations?

Answer: We understand that in some extreme circumstances that the Match Director may have to require the shooter to stay seated or shoot standing. We respect that the clubs need to do this to keep within club safety parameters so we will permit clubs to take such action they deem in their best interest.

We understand that one could say a slight advantage could be made by a shooter standing over seated, but we feel it is an academic argument at best and that the shooters will still be on an even standing and will be able to enjoy the fun and camaraderie of this international competition.

11.) Question: How do I hold a hand of cards in stage 1. Can I have my strong hand on the gun?

Answer: Both hands are on the cards. You may not reach for your gun before the start signal.

[robot]

thanks! got it.

as for 10. It's actually harder to do a tac-reload with retention when you're sitting down.

[grizzlywon]

Not to argue or anything, but why didn't the course description just say, "both hands on the cards." It just said hold in the cards.

[Jane]

Not to argue or anything, but why didn't the course description just say, "both hands on the cards." It just said hold in the cards.

It's a lot harder to write a bullet-proof course description when you don't have the benefit of a shooter's meeting or walk-through to deal with questions that you haven't thought of.

I know that several people (including me) proof-read the descriptions before they were posted, but all of us missed some things. Which is why the FAQ was put online by the organizer to address questions that arise.

[cws357]

I shot the course this morning as well. Thought it was fun, the IDPA lays out constraints; just like any other sport. Hope to see how I did later this week.

[Chris Christian]

As a CSO at two North Florida clubs I will say that the COFs for the Postal Match could have been written with a bit more clarity & definition. But, common sense has to prevail at some point. Ted Murphy's "Table Games" says start holding a hand of cards.....OK... maybe he should have written it to say " Holding a hand of cards with both hands". But, he didn't. That's his bad. However... I've yet to see a "holding cards" stage at any IDPA match that allows cards in one hand and the other hand already on the gun under the cover garment, as one poster wanted to do. This is IDPA. Holding a hand of cards is commonly meant in IDPA to have the cards in both hands. If cover is required (as it is in this match) then you have to dig under the cover garment to get the gun.... that's pretty standard. Murphy could have done a better job with the actual COF description had he been a better technical writer, but most MDs and their CSOs figured out what he was trying to say and ran it the way it was supposed to be run. This picking continually until the last nit is truly picked is... INMHO... a major waste of time. The 2009 Postal Match was a basic skill test that was simple enough to allow any club to set up on whatever facilities they had, and allows thousands of shooters across the globe to see where they stand in relation to other shooters in those basic skills. Not a bad deal....especially since the shooters didn't have to contend with the parking problem a 2000 + shooter match would entail. Let's stop picking nits and thank the Postal Match crew for the job they did.... which isn't over.... because they now have to tabulate all the scores and get the awards certificates out to all the individual MDs. Their work is just starting. And, we should thank them for it.

Chris Christian

[Ted Murphy]

Hey guys,

Glad those of you who shot the postal match have liked it. We hope that the FAQ helped solve your questions.

Just to give you a little history, this year there was not going to be a postal match for various reasons. In conversations with Robert Ray he lamented that there was not going to be one in 09; and with the final TJ of the shooting season going to press, the window of opportunity for having one was all but closed. The postal match as you see it was conceived, set up, and drawn out by a small group of volunteers in less than four hours the day before the tactical journal went to press.

So to answer some questions that people asked me at Nationals:

The targets were short because in the 45 minutes the stages were set up prior to me setting up part of Guthesville's monthly USPSA match we had time to get the angles, but did not have time to determine exactly how high the targets could be and still safely be within the short berms some clubs have. The shorter targets may contribute to some landscaping on the range but were more likely to stay within the berm- something we considered more important.

The card came stage was a standards concept that Robert Ray wanted to see incorporated into a postal match. I took his basic idea and made it into the stage. Robert felt a Limited Vickers type test of shooting skills would be an interesting change, and a seated start would introduce that concept to many clubs that do not or have never tried this approach.

My initial draft of the match booklet had the beginnings of more complicated description for each stage, dealing with a lot of small details on each stage. I was advised to keep it brief so it would fit on one page. In retrospect I regret following that advice, and would do it differently if I did it again.

The stages are a bit on the narrow side. This was done to fit into smaller indoor bays. We are planning on sending a questionnaire to clubs that have run the postal match this year in order to better tailor this match to the facilities used.

I picked three stages from various IDPA National championships and modified them to be narrower. These stages were chosen because they were reasonably challenging, used basic props, and because they were from the Nationals. I know many clubs enjoy seeing what has been shot at national level events and figured these would be a bit more interesting as a result.

Many clubs do not have a lot of props, and we wanted to make the wall requirement such that tarps, barrels, or plywood structures could be used. That is what the non threat was for on the "banging" stage. I would have liked to have permitted a longer wall which would have accomplished the same thing, but there was some concern that it would confuse the issue.

After having run local matches for 10 years, a couple of major matches, and 2 Nationals I am used to taking shots from people. And I usually do not take the time to address them. But I figured this time it I should so people might better understand the process that goes behind certain decisions. I thought it nice to give you all some of the background.

I have enjoyed this postal match as the communication with the various shooters and match officials has been stimulating and enjoying. I hope you all have enjoyed it as well.

Ted Murphy

A02127

[Filishooter]

I shot this last weekend, it was a fun match. Thanks to all those involved in making it happen.

I noticed this on the FAQ's "...in order to keep people from abusing the results, they will be posted at the end of the match..." I guess this means there isn't a site like last year where we can check the current standings and have to wait until after October? Would there be any objection to people posting their times here? I think I did ok against local competition but I'm curious how it stacks up against the national average. I'm not sure how knowing how you did before the match is over is abusing the results but can respect if you don't want that info given out before all of the scores are in.

[Ted Murphy]

I could be wrong but I do believe they did not post the results last year until the end.

I was asked by HQ to keep the results private until Midnight, 9 November, so i cannot do anything about that.

There is a listing of the shooters registered for the match at idpapostalmatch.com

A lot of forums have members posting their times, they are having a lot of fun with it. I think it is pretty cool IMO.

Ted

Edited September 29, 2009 by Ted Murphy

[Jim Watson]

I shot it Sunday and thought it a reasonable effort in spite of all the Internet Monday Morning Quarterbacking. The only problem I saw was the time required to talk people through the card table stage with three very different strings.