KennyW Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Is it legal under USPSA rules to use the Hogue wraparound rubber grips with finger grooves on my CZ-75B in production division? Edited October 26, 2009 by KennyW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 (edited) Go check out Appendix D4-22 for your answer Later, Chuck PS: Welcome to the forum! Edited October 26, 2009 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Yes it is. I use those on my CZ 85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I believe those are considered to change the profile hence an illegal mod. http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2009_Production...s_Revisions.pdf 21.5 Grips For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Glue and grit is considered the same as stippling. Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell. Revolver grips may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture. Special Notes/Clarifications: See 22.4, below, for specifics with regard to modifications on revolver grips. ------------- 22.4 Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest. As noted above (21.5) Revolver grips may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture. 22.4 is deemed to NOT APPLY to REVOLVER grips. Adding or removing material to change the profile of Revolver grips is ALLOWED. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 RVB nailed it! Since CZ doesn't produce a factory grip with those finger hooters, it ain't legal! Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Ya made me go look, so why does this statement make them illegal: "Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell." The next sentenance deals with something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Ya made me go look, so why does this statement make them illegal: "Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell." The next sentenance deals with something completely different. I don't believe that rule applies here. I think this is the issue. Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile The factory front strap on the CZs are flat w/o finger grooves. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Case of having two rules that contradict each other. One says duplicate factory, other says Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell. Time to get the board back together and see which part of which rule is applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Case of having two rules that contradict each other. One says duplicate factory, other says Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.Time to get the board back together and see which part of which rule is applicable. I don't think those contradict each other --- since we have the duplicate factory language, the other probably wasn't necessary...... .....except for the case of a factory later producing aftermarket grips that extend below the frame forming a mag well. Such a blaster wouldn't get approved in the first place, but if someone tried to backdoor it, well there's language preventing it from being legal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I have had them on my CZ for 6 yrs now and not 1 RO/CRO has ever told me anything about them being illegal. I guess I need to email headquarters to get a ruling. I have seen many other shooters using this same grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I have had them on my CZ for 6 yrs now and not 1 RO/CRO has ever told me anything about them being illegal. I guess I need to email headquarters to get a ruling. I have seen many other shooters using this same grip. Based on this discussion, that could change now that we know what to look for Not every CRO/RO is aware of all the nuances of the Production rules, including the latest clarifications. Those of us that shoot Production are more aware, but we're not always up on the details of every model of every manufacturer's gun. Please share the results of your correspondence. Based strictly on the rule book language, they would appear to be illegal. If not, a written ruling from John Amidon to the contrary would be a good addition to your range bag to avoid being unwillingly bumped into Open for a grip sleeve. FWIW, people have been bumped to Open at the Nationals IIRC, for a bit of grip tape on the slide, another no-no. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I have sent an email to Mr Amidon with the link for this discussion included. If I am wrong (and it appears I very well may be), I thank everyone for bringing it to my attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Alright here is the down and dirty as you requested, direct from John Amidon. Hi Todd, The rules that were quoted are correct, they did not however give all the language to make it clearer. Here is the actual language of 22: 22 Specifically prohibited modifications and features Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division. 22.4 Grips – any addition or removal of material which As noted above (21.5) Revolver grips may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket grips changes the factory profile or adds function such as of any shape, profile and surface texture. 22.4 is deemed to NOT APPLY to beavertail or thumb rest. REVOLVER grips. Adding or removing material to change the profile of Revolver grips is ALLOWED. The short answer to your question, no, these grips would not be legal as it changes the factory profile. These can be found on the following link http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2009_Production...s_Revisions.pdf. Regards, John Amidon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddrod Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 So, does anyone want a cheap pair of these grips for their CZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Appreciate your sharing your correspondence with John, Todd. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) All that said and determined, I'll just add that I actually think it's a shame... trigger work, replacement barrels and slides, sights, etc can all be changed, but such a simple thing is not allowed... and it's such a common mod for non-competitors that I'd hate to see someone new to the game feel turned away over a $14 set of grips... but I understand the slippery slope that has to be avoided. So I support the rule. ... I just wish there could be a way to allow 'em for the sake of attracting... and KEEPING... new shooters who bring their nightstand gun to the matches. -rvb Edited October 27, 2009 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 trugrip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManNamedJed Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 LAME! This exact thing bumped me to open at Area 1. When I started shooting USPSA it was explained to me that production was for guns that a PO or Mil person would actually carry on duty. Yet there are glocks that are so far from that its silly. Yet I can't put hogue grips on my gun - which are very popular with POs. Note grip sleeves are allowed, yet they often have finger grooves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 LAME!This exact thing bumped me to open at Area 1. When I started shooting USPSA it was explained to me that production was for guns that a PO or Mil person would actually carry on duty. Yet there are glocks that are so far from that its silly. Yet I can't put hogue grips on my gun - which are very popular with POs. Note grip sleeves are allowed, yet they often have finger grooves. Sights... Grips... Maybe you should just shoot open 'Jed. Less stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 This rule desperately needs to be changed for sanity's sake. Same with the grip-tape-on-the-slide rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 When I started shooting USPSA it was explained to me that production was for guns that a PO or Mil person would actually carry on duty. I took a look through the BOD minutes to see "why" production was created according to the administration at the time. I found these 2 nuggets: 22 Jan 2000 BOD Minutes "The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors." 7 Mar 2009 "In 2000, the Production Division was created to be a division for stock pistols with very limited modifications allowed" These are the only two statements that explain the intent of the Production division in the USPSA archives. I may of missed something since I did not go through all the files but unless you find it there, everything else is folklore. I think the folks are doing a pretty good job meeting these criteria. And that comes from a guy who had to put that ^@(# FPB back in my SP-01. PAX, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManNamedJed Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) "Production Division was created to be a division for stock pistols with very limited modifications allowed" I think most of us would consider finger groove grips to be a minor modification, and most of us would consider the high end trigger jobs we see in production to not be a 'limited modification'. And I have put my FPB back in as well, yet I've never seen that checked. Edited October 29, 2009 by ManNamedJed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSAJ19 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 These Hogue grips were a factory issued grip on "CZ 75 Champion", so as such, I believe they are a factory option as are Cocobolo, plastic, rubber, aluminium etc. Personally, they feel great, but look like crap. Cheers, Ando. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 These Hogue grips were a factory issued grip on "CZ 75 Champion", so as such, I believe they are a factory option as are Cocobolo, plastic, rubber, aluminium etc. Personally, they feel great, but look like crap. Cheers, Ando. Yes but the Champion is a comped single action gun. It has to be a factory option on a production legal gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawdawg112 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I know this is a little off topic, but just want to be clear. The factory wrap around panels with finger grooves are not legal, but Houge slip on grip sleeves are legal? I shoot a G34 with a slip on houge that has the finger grooves. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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