Charles Bond Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 You guys have me so interested in this that I am tempted to put a 50 yard standards sidematch in the next Area 6 match and see if using your weak hand to hold the gun by the "foregrip" or "weapon part" actually gives the shooter any advantage. It might be real fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 And where oh where is the popcorn icon when you need it Jim It is right next to my collection of Mel Brooks' best. How 'bout some more beans Mr. Taggart? Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Show me a definition for fore grip in the rulebook. Seriously... You don't know what a fore grip is without it being defined in the glossary of the rule book? I think you are pulling my leg. But, of course, if you don't understand something in the rulebook, you should ask for clarification. However, I believe your rational...how it's used...is fundamentally flawed. If the equipment meets the division requirements, that should be that. We...in a freestyle sport...should not be dictating how it is used. I don't think "RO judgement" goes that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 <snip>I'd treat it as a magwell --- unless the shooter used it as a foregrip.... 5.1.10 prohibits fore grips on handguns. It bans a thing, not a function. Don't conflate the two. Your very own quote shows that you are concerned about a function, rather than a thing. Section 5 concerns competitor equipment, not gun handling. That's elsewhere. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 In the recent thread about the slide falling off the person's pistol, it led to ATF definition of what a pistol is why the muzzle of the slide could point up range... so in this case it seems ATF is VERY picky about the definition of a foregrip on a handgun due to NFA laws, and a magwell does not meet that definition. not necessarily an 'opinion,' just extending the logic accepted in another rule topic example. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 A long time ago (late 80's) a competitor showed up at the now defunct Kansas City Indoor Championship at the old Hodgen's Powder test range with what I remember was called a Lahti. Looked like a sub-gun and had a big stick holding 9mm. He also had mounted a laser sight since most of the courses of fire were low light. (This was back when single stack .38 supers with iron sights were just starting to be the hot ticket.) His holster passed the retention test when he jumped and spun over the bar and he was allowed to shoot. Was not an optimal gun platform, but cool as hell. I think the crowd wanting to watch him shoot was as big or bigger than the ones for the big name shooters.I called a friend who was there with me and it was a Linda pistol, manufactured by Wilkinson Arms. Sadly I never got to attend or shoot that match. But that is the range I shoot at every week, still there and going strong. Heck I think we even still have some of those old props, remember the targets that had steel behind the A Zone so that they fell when hit? Although our club doesn't use them there are a few groups that use them from time to time. A lot of the old shooters still come around from time to time as well. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 This is a practical discussion, since it is possible that a newbie might show up for his/her first match with such a gun.On a related note, I had a relative newbie show up with a 5.7 last match. In no way,shape, or form does a 5.7 fit in any division of USPSA or IDPA. If steel were allowed at my club, I would have told him "Sorry. Can't let you shoot. Go to the cashier and get your money back - too bad about the long drive you had to make. You are not shooting tonight." But as it was, I realized this guy had been to a previous IDPA & USPSA and was a paying club member who simply wanted to shoot since he was starting to really enjoy the sports. Turning him away would not be the best option. Instead, we explained the problem, made sure he understood the rules problem his gun presented and let him shoot with the squad on this one occasion for no score. Everyone went home happy. If a newbie shows up with a "less than optimal" gun (or only the 2 mags that came with his gun), please consider accommodating them if it can be done safely & within the rules. Sorry, Off topic, but agreed. We had a newbie show up the other night with only two mags for a M&P9C... Legal in USPSA Production. I have 2 back-up 17-rounds in my bag. I loaned him a spare M&P mag so he could carry enough ammo to the line to finish all the stages. He shot horribly, had a blast, and thanked me profusely! This is what I like about this sport... I'd drop down a mag on my belt, if a nice guy needed one to play. Hell, I've had guys offer me their $2500 "back-up" gun to shoot for the night... Just to try Limited. (Funny... they didn't offer ammo!) Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Show me a definition for fore grip in the rulebook. Seriously... You don't know what a fore grip is without it being defined in the glossary of the rule book? You know there's lots of things defined in the rulebook, who's definition I understand without reading Appendix A3. (Bullet, Caliber, Cartridge Case, Compensator, Cross Draw,all come to mind....) Fore Grip isn't defined --- it might mean that they're talking about something attached to the rails of the foreend (akin to what we normally think of when considering rifles), or it might not. Seriously --- what do you think 5.1.10 was meant to prevent? Using a Mauser or Luger with a shoulder stock, using a Beretta 92 that had been modded with the 93R shoulder stock and foregrip, or one of the Czech blasters that look like that? (I'm guessing that's what they meant to prevent --- use of the pistol based quasi-carbines....) I think you are pulling my leg. But, of course, if you don't understand something in the rulebook, you should ask for clarification. Well, I might be pulling your leg...... :D However, I believe your rational...how it's used...is fundamentally flawed. I get that --- and I'm not surprised by that thought process. I appreciate it --- because I understand what concerns you in this game we love.... If the equipment meets the division requirements, that should be that. We...in a freestyle sport...should not be dictating how it is used. I don't think "RO judgement" goes that far. O.K. --- I'm with you. But play a moment longer: So I show up with my AR Pistol, which has a rifle length buffer tube, and at the start signal I draw, jam the end of the buffer tube into my strong side shoulder and grab the front of the magwell in my left hand pulling the "pistol" back into my shoulder. Then I proceed to hose the targets ---- am I still shooting a pistol or a shortbarreled rifle? Am I in compliance with 5.1.10 or not? See my conundrum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I think the applicable rule here is clearly an "equipment" rule. So, you look at the equipment. Not how it is used. If not... - When does a *thumb rest [generic]* become a fore grip? - When does the front of a squared and serrated trigger become a fore grip? - When does a technique...like the extra point of contact that you mention... become illegal? (compare to shooting from close retention, with the butt of the grip pressed/indexed to the side of the rib cage...a common enough "practical" technique) Open division should be an equipment race, right? (even if an idea doesn't work out to be an advantage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I think the applicable rule here is clearly an "equipment" rule. So, you look at the equipment. Not how it is used.If not... - When does a *thumb rest [generic]* become a fore grip? - When does the front of a squared and serrated trigger become a fore grip? I don't know ---- when does a dropped slide/barrel not violate the muzzle pointing uprange prohibition? You can't be in favor of a literal reading of the words on one rule (that's not a fore-grip) and want to interpret others. It's not a pick and choose approach. The rulebook will always be open to some kind of interpretation --- the best we can hope for is a ruling from DNROI/BOD so that all of us range officers call it consistently, even if some of us personally disagree with either the written rule or the interpretation.... (BTW --- I don't see a *thumb rest [generic]* or trigger guard ever offering enough material to be a useable foregrip, unless a ton of material is added....) - When does a technique...like the extra point of contact that you mention... become illegal? (compare to shooting from close retention, with the butt of the grip pressed/indexed to the side of the rib cage...a common enough "practical" technique) The gun's still held in either a one or two handed firing grip, right? Nobody's grabbing a fore-grip, right? Open division should be an equipment race, right? (even if an idea doesn't work out to be an advantage) Should be --- but we've got 5.1.10 and a page of rules devoted to the concept of almost anything goes, but not quite everything. I argued pretty vociferously against imposing the current holster/mag pouch restrictions on Open, but lost that argument.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 A friend told me about a stage he shot some years ago. There was a long horizontal slot in a barricade that wasn't wide enough to accommodate dot sighted guns in their usual vertical position. You had to turn the gun sideways to run the stage. He was, and still is, an advocate of tube-style dot sights. He said he turned the gun sideways and gripped the tube with his support hand. Sort of a two-handed gangsta style. Apparantly it was the winning way of handling that stage. Did the tube somehow morph into a fore grip? Does it have some non-infringing functions that over-ride its alleged fore-grippiness? Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Boy, does this bring back memories...at one of the first state matches I MD'd here on Maui we had a shooter come over from O'ahu who brought with him an AR Open Gun in .223. We didn't let him shoot the steel, and he was fine with the penalties, and on the close targets we just kinda automatically gave him 2 A's since the whole A zone was blown out (understandably he went last every time on his squad), but he had a blast and it was a hoot watching him shoot it. Our section coordinator at the time was really opposed to letting him shoot, but we kinda prevailed upon him with "spirit of the game" arguments since the shooter was being safe, he didn't use the magwell as a foregrip, etc, etc. He'd made a big ol' leather holster for it and it did retain it. Of course, this was long before the BEnos Universe...back when magazine length was what would fit flush in your gun or was the standard magazine available, .38 Super could be scored major in Limited because there was NO Limited Division officially yet, Para's were still wearing aluminum frames and Glocks were the only plastic guns available. I think STI's started showing up at the next state match or the one after that. This particular shooter showed up at the next state match we hosted with a Desert Eagle in .44 mag and he would put a full power load as the next to last round in his magazines to remind him when to reload. Sometimes I miss the free-for-all things we used to do in this sport. Edited October 28, 2009 by gino_aki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) *merged* Looks OK to me, right? But seriously, what am I missing...? http://www.rockriver...category_id=232 Edited July 15, 2010 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g34 Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I think this has been discussed before, and it was said to be legal. I could be wrong though. I would be interested in seeing a holster that covers the trigger guard on one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Find a holster that meets the rules and then I guess the challenge would be magazine length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I was going to ask in my first post if it ijust because no one makes a holster. I've been eying one of these for a while...for a bunch of reasons. My local ranges don't allow rifle calibers, and with a few pistol caliber carbine matches and now the IDPA 3gun coming out I think it would be a nice toy. Plus if I could use it to play in USPSA it would be a blast. Now to find a holster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Find a holster that meets the rules and then I guess the challenge would be magazine length. Olympic arms makes a lower that takes Glock mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 You could do it But it will in no way be competitive...slow and clumbsy It could be fun though Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I think rule 5.1.10 might come into play here ... Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock_40_caliber Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I think rule 5.1.10 might come into play here ... Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited. According to the ATF, there is no fore grip on it. If there was, it wouldn't meet the definition of a pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 There was a previous thread on this-also a member in Florida was talking about making one into an open pistol. Meant as PDW in full auto mode, offered to civilians in semi; the mags are too long. Good for turning into a SBR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) I think rule 5.1.10 might come into play here ... Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited. According to the ATF, there is no fore grip on it. If there was, it wouldn't meet the definition of a pistol. For better or worse, ATF Regulations and USPSA Rules are two different books ... Neither of which totally depends on the other for definitions. The "thing" surrounding the muzzle forward of the magwell (picture in the OP) clearly meets the definition of "fore grips of any kind" as worded in USPSA Rule 5.1.10, IMHO. Unless one of the RMI's tells me I'm full of it (Which has been known to happen!) and why, I would declare this a "USPSA (or IPSC, for that matter ... the rule is the same) ILLEGAL for competition firearm" at any match where I am working as the RM. Edit: Additional thought, and I'm not quite certain on this one, but the recoil spring housing could be argued as being a "stock" within the meaning of 5.1.10. Yeah, that might be stretching things a little, but I see it as a possibility. Edited July 14, 2010 by Schutzenmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 I don't think it would be legal because of the fore grip, the appearance of a shoulder stock, and magazine length. ATF says it's not a fore grip, but there's a place to put your hand on it, so I'm pretty sure under USPSA rules it's a fore grip. Heck, in Louisiana, the state says chickens aren't animals, so you can fight them. The chickens probably think differently. Just sayin'. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 then simply remove the foregrip and use the magwell if you want your hand up there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I think I'll design and manufacture a legal holster for that beast. I'll be able to retire in the style I deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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