Mandatory Reshoot? Yes Or No??

[Blake Miguez]

What is the rule for this situation. When a shooter outruns a Range Officer while completing a course of fire and the Range Officer(knowing he was unable to keep up with the shooter) looks back on the timer to review the number of shots fired. The timer shows one less shot fired then the course of fire requires. What does the rule book say about this? Time stands because its the responsiblity of the Range Officer to record an accurate time? Mandatory reshoot because of a flaw in the scoring? BTW this happened to me at my last big match and I was forced to reshoot a perfect stage. Just wondering if the Range Officer made the right decision. Thanks for your help.

(Just curious) "What iF" situation: What if the competitior fires a few extra shoots but the Range Officer thinks the timer didn't get the last shot?

[Jake Di Vita]

What if your splits were too fast for the timer to register?

I know my timer doesn't register anything under .10, which as far as I know, is not out of the range of possibility for masters of the universe such as yourself.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Blake,

The relevant rule (in the January 2004 Edition of the IPSC rulebook) is:

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor's attempt at a course of fire. If, in the opinion of a Range Officer, a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

In the above rule, "faulty" means "not working properly" - it doesn't mean "The RO couldn't keep pace with the competitor, so let's try that again". On the other hand:

9.10.2 If, in the opinion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4).

So, if Eric, Robbie and Todd shoot a stage cleanly in 20 seconds, but Joe D. Grader shoots it cleanly in 15 seconds, that would be considered an "unrealistic" time. It's a judgement call, but most of us know when something is wrong.

However you'll note mention of the Arbitration Committee, so this means the RO would make his call (e.g. reshoot) in the first instance as usual and, if you're unhappy with that call, you would need to file an appeal to Arbitration, and they would make the final determination.

Bottom line: The RO made what he thought was the correct call and, if you didn't appeal up the line, you have no recourse.

Hope this helps.

[lynn jones]

blake,

i agree with TheItlianStalion. we should just put the timer on your holster, butt , whatever. it'll catch your last shot.

but really, that problem rarely occurs, we ro's are fleet o'foot...not fleet o'shooting, the main problem would be around wall and such.

lynn

p.s. next time book you flight to phoenix earilier so you don't have to sit next to the toilet.

[Flexmoney]

Blake,

I think that most course descriptions read (if written properly):

Start - Audible

Stop - Last Shot

So, if I (RO'ing) get to the end of the stage, and the timer shows less shots than what were fired/needed, that is simply a "clue". I'll then uses the split function on the timer to help me determine if the shot that didn't registered was the last shot...or some meaningless split in the middle of the stage.

If the timer didn't record the last shot...then I give the shooter a mandatory reshoot...while I go change the battery. Stuff happens.

As a shooter, if I think I'm going to be moving out at a high rate of speed and I have the foresight to wonder if the RO will keep up...before LAMR, when he asks if I have any questions...I might respond by saying, "Tie your shoes on tight fat man...I'll keep my finger out of the trigger guard...you just try to catch up to me at the end so that the timer can record my last shot".

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

As Chairman of The International Fat Bastards Association, I think the only fair thing to do is add ankle weights to skinny competitors who run like rabbits.

I'm thinking about 40lbs for Blake. Maybe a GPS locator too

[Ron Ankeny]

"Tie your shoes on tight fat man...". ROTFLMAO.

I think I could out run an RO if I put sleeping pills in his Geritol and sawed one of the legs off of his walker.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Jokes aside, we had a case at WSXIII in South Africa where there was an "unrealistic" time recorded. This was caused by a (sluggish) RO being unable to keep up with a fleet-footed competitor who disappeared behind a prop in the stage for his final shots, which were obviously not registered by the timer.

The subject (B Grade) competitor, who was shooting Standard Division, achieved about the same points as Eric Grauffel and other GMs shooting in Open Division, however his time was considerably faster.

To cut a long story short, he graciously agreed to reshoot the stage when requested, without lodging an appeal, because he concurred that his time was indeed unrealistic.

[Flexmoney]

In the case mentioned (Blake's), without checking the splits, there is no way for the RO to know which shot the timer missed.

Blake is at the edge of the envelope.

Being that fast...it can sometime baffle the RO's.

Vince, I think Blake would see wearing the 40lbs. of weights as a challenge. Then we'd all have to deal with getting beat by a guy wearing 40 pounds of weight around his ankles.

[Vince Pinto]

Hmmmm. This discussion gives me an idea. Since we have Divisions and Classes for shooters, why don't we do the same for ROs?

The RO Divisions would be Provisional RO, RO, CRO and RM - the RO Classes would be:

Grand Litigator

Litigator

Second Chair

Arbitration Clerk and Water Boy

Fans of Ally McBeal

Damned Range Lawyers

Frontal Lobotomy Survivors

Persons Who Just Say "Rule X Sucks"

[Mistral404]

Well, with Blake there are probably two issues:

1. His foot speed needs to be slowed down to that of the ROs.

2. His finger speed needs to be slowed down to that of mere mortals.

His splits were probably too fast to be recorded by the timer.

[Skywalker]

Blake,

someone here in the forums once said it's almost impossible to outrun a semiauto, but you have demonstrated you can at least outrun the RO!

[davecutts]

I was on Blake's squad at area II and if I remember right the RO admitted to stumbling, and/or getting caught up on the steps coming off a deck like structure. He fessed up that it was his fault and apologized.

I've also seen one other situation where time was not recorded, however the RO did not call for a reshoot. Last position of a course is a prone port constructed out of hay bails. The shooter in question goes in to the port far enough that the timer the RO is holding at waist level does not record all the shots fired from the position. B class L-10 shooter wins stage, M class shooters not happy.

[LPatterson]

At the Race Gun Nationals, I made a mistake by not following a shooter closely enough when he over ran a fault line and fired 8 shots that did not register on the timer and I had to give him a reshoot because the time was incorrect. I wasn't close enough because I thought he would discover his mistake and retreat and I didn't want to get run over and be the cause for him getting a reshoot. I later discovered that what I was trying to avoid had actually happened. If a time were unrealistic I would look at the timer to see if it had registered all the shots and if not then a reshoot would be required for range equipment failure. In some cases we are just not fast enough to keep up with the shooter and have to rely on the timer. But I have also had a round hit the timer after IYAFUASC because the shooter raised the gun vertical before ejecting the round. I wouldn't have discovered it except the scorer said he thought he saw it hit and the timer had recorded one more shot than I had scored. The shooter requested a change of times to that shown for the number of hits but I held out for a reshoot and the RM agreed. I had a lot more fun shooting when it was up to someone else to worry about rules than I am now as a CRO.

[davecutts]

after pondering this for a few more minutes ... what if the timer did register the last shot fire, but missed one between the beep, and the audible last shot. I recall it being a 32 round course the timer only go 31. So do you give an RO fault to the shooter, or make him reshoot?

[lynn jones]

davecutts,

as long as the timer records the last shot, no reshoot. the time is correct and that's what your looking for.

lynn

[TDean]

Blakester, I remember the stage....

I feel your pain. If you have a screaming run, but don't get credit due to the slow RO, ...that sucks!! Especially when just a few points decides the match

Maybe in the future we need a clip-on "microphone" that remotely signals the timer. It would be very small and would clip to the competitors shirt.

The timer would then NOT have to be held by the RO. There would be this LARGE DISPLAY timer stationed at the RO table that everyone could see.

A double benefit!

[davecutts]

lynn:

my point was how do you know if it's the last shot or the 31st shot.

[AikiDale]

The timer starts the cof with a beep and ends it with the last shot. I don't care how many shots the timer picks up, but I do make every effort to be close to the shooter at the last shot. And in Blake's case, I was quite happy, as a fat old RO, to have the clipboard at the FGN when he shot my stage.

[Flexmoney]

davecutts,

That is where you HAVE to look at the splits. You should be able to determine if the timer got the last shot or not. Just because the timer only shows 27 shots in a 28 round course...that doesn't (automatically) mean it missed the last shot. And, the last shot is the only one that counts.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

When we're talking about an M or higher grade competitor, it's usually difficult (or impossible) to make a firm judgement using the timer review function. Depending on the layout of the COF, the guys from the top of the food chain can record target to target shots very similar to splits on a single target.

Like many other things in IPSC shooting, good course design and good range management will prevent most difficulties from arising in the first place:

1) Don't expect a sloth to chase a gazelle on a long (distance, not number of rounds) COF. If a COF requires covering a lot of ground, assign fleet-footed ROs to that stage.

2) Avoid building COFs where the competitor has to run 10 metres just to fire at a single final target - it's better to have a few targets there to give the RO time to catch up. Remember the RO has to keep some distance to avoid interference.

3) Ensure there's sufficient room at the end of the COF for RO access, so that his timer can register the final shots.

4) Avoid having a final shooting position where the competitor disappears behind a prop.

5) Avoid having a final shooting position where the competitor has to go prone and stick his gun through a low port, thereby muffling the sound of his final shots.

6) If necessary, test the sensitivity of the timer before running competitors through it.

IPSC is not an exact science, so a few simple precautions can avoid problems.

[Skywalker]

Well, actually a bit of a good habit from the RO side might help in this case.

I mean, whenever I'm ROing a competitor, especially a top competitor I know I won't be able to move as quickly as him, I try to concentrate on his body/gun movements from a medium distance (not to bump into him when he moves quickly), rather than following him just a step behind.

Moreover, when the shooter gets to the final shooting position, I try to bring the timer into my field of vision during the last couple of shots, just to get confident it records the last shot.

Of course, whenever I have positively confirmed the timer got the last shot (and I have memorized the time), I put it behind my back to prevent it picking up the racking of the slide or being hit by the round cleared from the chamber.

At this point I'm confident that the recorded time is the correct one.

[Blake Miguez]

Thanks for the help guys. Fortunately when I reshot the stage I improved it by 1/2-3/4 of a second but everybody knows this could have really went the other way. I would have really been upset if this would have been the case (reshoot curse). I didn't question the R.O.'s call about the mandatory reshoot but was just curious what to do if this ever happens again. Thanks for the information. Special thanks to Vince for citing specific rules.

Lynn, Yeah the back of the plane wasn't a great place to be. I was forced to listen to the flight attendent's life story and problems,lol. Plus all the orange juice spilled off the shelves when the plane landed.

TDean, I like your idea about the timer. Your idea about the timer reminds me of the new CED timer that is coming out soon. Of what I hear, it has a small portable display which the clipboard holder has to record the time immediately when the shooter finishes so he doesn't have to run with the RO. This will also stop added time from a bumped timer by the RO after the stage. I am suppose to be testing this new timer soon, I will see how it works out. Also I believe before you shoot a stage you should tell the RO in advance, "Hey my splits are fast as hell, hold the timer really close to my gun" lol This way you don't run into any missed shot problems by the timer,lol.

[Vince Pinto]

Blake,

You're most welcome - and keep those sluggish ROs on their toes!

I don't think my old mate Chuck Hardy will spank me for releasing an image of his new CED 8000 timer, which should be available from US dealers next month (I have no idea of the price yet).

[IPSCDRL]

Cripes Vince, I'm SIXTH!???!?

I had this happen at last month's match. After running behind the entire squad of shooters through a hundred yard deep field course I was sufficiently tired and slow that my timer did not pick up the final shots of one of my buddies. I was forced to make him re-shoot since I did not have the correct elapsed time for him. My bad.

I was glad that his two runs were basically equal.

This reminds me of the nationals where my hero Dave Sevigny fired his last few shots behind a prop and they were not recorded. He had a MUCH faster time than other members of the supper squad. He insisted on re-shooting the stage for a “proper” (lower) score in the sense of fairness.