Breaking your grip to run/move

[Aristotle]

I'd like to get the opinion of the board. One thing I have been trying to work on is keeping both of my hands on the gun ready to be indexed. Of course this is still something I am struggling with along with other things. I'd like to see know how much time, if any, am I losing every time I have to break my grip to get to another position before getting my hands back on the grip.

On some instances, like when I am running/retreating I don't think there is a safer method for me to run with both hands on the gun while running UP range. So in this instance I will keep running with only strong hand on the grip. But the other instances, could I, or should I have kept both mitts on my grip?

I try to keep the gun up and indexed and drive it to the next position.

[Aristotle]

Something else I also noticed I did, was "punch" the gun into position/index at every target. I noticed this while live fire practice the other week. I have been working on just simply pusing/guiding the gun to the next position, instead of sucking it in, and punching it out to the next target. Which is sort of a habit with shooting IDPA and shooting around barricades, etc.

[XRe]

Any time you take more than about 2 steps, you GAIN time by breaking your grip. Why? You are moving in better balance, and you can use your arms as they were meant to be used - as stabilizers while you move quickly. It allows you to pump your arms, etc, while you run, as well. When you enter the next position, about 2-ish steps out, once you know you can hit the spot, you re-establish grip and push the gun back out, indexing on the next target to be engaged.

Further, as you noted about running backwards, but in plenty of other cases, too, running with both hands on the gun actually makes it easier to get unsafe, if you fall, or slip, etc.

As far as indexes/transitions between targets or arrays go, you should be maintaining the "triangle", and swinging into the next target - smoothly accelerating away from where you're at after calling a good shot, and then smoothly decelerating to a stop on the first target in the next array. Anything else is wasted motion. The only time I don't follow that rule of thumb is when the index is 165-170+ degrees (ie, super wide). Then, I've found that I do better to bring the gun in and push back out on the next target (tested on the timer & scoring on the paper) - the reason is that I tend to stay in better balance, and I don't tend to over index the gun as much, so I get better points more quickly.

[Micah]

The next time you have a few minutes, try jogging with your arms locked by your sides. Awkward no? We naturally use our arms as counterweights to assist us as we move quickly. By locking your arms into a grip on the gun we deprive ourselves of that natural balance. By breaking that grip we can restore some of that natural movement.

[Aristotle]

uhhh, okay. yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I must have taken an advise and gone too far with it. Thanks guys!

[Chris iliff]

XRe, I have read some stuff written by another GM that said he wasn't sure that breaking the grip for shorter distances was that conducive. He knew that at a certain distance it was good for him, but said that distance was fairly long. He also shot with Super Squads and if I recall correctly said some of the really good shooters almost never break thier grip. I guess a shooter would have to put it to a timer. I'd like to hear some more of the better shooters, high A to GM, speak to this issue. Thanks.

[UW Mitch]

The next time you have a few minutes, try jogging with your arms locked by your sides. Awkward no? We naturally use our arms as counterweights to assist us as we move quickly. By locking your arms into a grip on the gun we deprive ourselves of that natural balance. By breaking that grip we can restore some of that natural movement.

I don't think Aristotle has time for jogging OUCH!

Nah, but next time you're out jogging, practice air gunning and sighting in on objects with blissful abandon until you notice there's a patrol car facing you with the officer wondering what the hell you're doing. Extra points for running in Speedo jammers or bike shorts. :shrug: not that I know anything about that...

~Mitch

[outerlimits]

XRe, I have read some stuff written by another GM that said he wasn't sure that breaking the grip for shorter distances was that conducive. He knew that at a certain distance it was good for him, but said that distance was fairly long. He also shot with Super Squads and if I recall correctly said some of the really good shooters almost never break thier grip. I guess a shooter would have to put it to a timer. I'd like to hear some more of the better shooters, high A to GM, speak to this issue. Thanks.

i think dave is absolutely right in his suggestion. but heck, try a drill with some targets and boxes say 6' apart, and another at 15'. time them and you'll see what he's saying.

[AlamoShooter]

I am not a GM and most likely never will be. I don't shoot much limited mostly open.

But the Idea that something could be lost by breaking your grip to move is strange to me. almost like my shoes don't fit as good when I pick my foot up to walk or run.

I am not a fast shooter > split time wise< I keep up with the fast guys by being ready to shoot when I get to position and being ready to move when I finish the shot. being ready to move means most often letting go of the gun.

[XRe]

XRe, I have read some stuff written by another GM that said he wasn't sure that breaking the grip for shorter distances was that conducive. He knew that at a certain distance it was good for him, but said that distance was fairly long. He also shot with Super Squads and if I recall correctly said some of the really good shooters almost never break thier grip. I guess a shooter would have to put it to a timer. I'd like to hear some more of the better shooters, high A to GM, speak to this issue. Thanks.

Max, TT, Chris Tilley, Eric Grauffel ... all break their grip. They've put it on a timer. I've put it on a timer. Maku mozo...

[mike cyrwus]

My .02 is that I go one-handed when my strides increase; not necessarily when I take X number of steps, or paces.

For example, when I leave a position and I need to make a quick turn around a wall, down a corridor, I may take as many as 5 or 6 steps to make the turn. I might do this with both hands on the gun, gun tucked in high to reduce my overall profile. But as Xre said; when I need to boogie, Im getting low and getting my sprint on; one handed.

Edited September 1, 2009 by mike cyrwus

[Aristotle]

The next time you have a few minutes, try jogging with your arms locked by your sides. Awkward no? We naturally use our arms as counterweights to assist us as we move quickly. By locking your arms into a grip on the gun we deprive ourselves of that natural balance. By breaking that grip we can restore some of that natural movement.

I don't think Aristotle has time for jogging OUCH!

Nah, but next time you're out jogging, practice air gunning and sighting in on objects with blissful abandon until you notice there's a patrol car facing you with the officer wondering what the hell you're doing. Extra points for running in Speedo jammers or bike shorts. :shrug: not that I know anything about that...

~Mitch

I do okay against you athletic types... in a match. lol

Unless I hear a beep, or you are the bus 55 or 54 the only thing I like to run is my mouth. and dude, wicked visuals with the whole speedo and bike shorts deal,

[notasccrmom]

Something else to consider (for us non open or limited shooters ) is that 9 times out of 10 if we are moving we are reloading, so the off hand comes off the gun for the reload anyways. If it's a long run, I'll pump my left arm to run after I seat the mag. If it's within a few steps, my hand is coming back up to seat the mag about the time I'm getting to the next position.

[Chris iliff]

Sometimes I think I must type something different and have to reread my posts after I read the posts following mine. I never said what I do, I only wanted to hear more from the guys that are better than me. Some of the posts below my first respond like I was making statements as to the best method, and not like I was asking questions and trying to bring out different opinions. Don't drop the hammer on me, definitely not deluded, just a high "B" still seeking, questioning, and being open.

[BSeevers]

You break your grip to RUN. Running with two arms syncing is faster right? If you can do a sub one second draw on demand then you can reacquire that grip in what .35 seconds? The real fast shooters are doing it coming into position (there is the real speed)before a target can be engaged.

Now for a trade secret. Practice both ways to win. Every stage is different and both skills come up frequently.

Watch out for dogmatic statements. There are many universal truths in shooting well, but use some of your athletic traits and nature to figure out things. Timer doesn't lie either.

And remember a .45 is the only defensive caliber you should ever consider.

[G-ManBart]

Sometimes I think I must type something different and have to reread my posts after I read the posts following mine. I never said what I do, I only wanted to hear more from the guys that are better than me. Some of the posts below my first respond like I was making statements as to the best method, and not like I was asking questions and trying to bring out different opinions. Don't drop the hammer on me, definitely not deluded, just a high "B" still seeking, questioning, and being open.

Don't worry, if Dave (XRe) drops the hammer on you you'll know it

It has always seemed to me that if you're not doing a reload, and it's more than maybe one or two steps, you're always going to be faster if you take your support hand off the gun. There are also some stages where you're only moving a step or two, but it's akward and you're probably faster doing it with one hand free to balance yourself so that you're smooth and get into the next position ready to shoot. One of my to-do list things is to work on movement technique for those sort of short couple of step stages (or positions/areas) because I think I've given up time on them consistently...i.e. work on how hard to go at those couple of setps. R,

[Chris iliff]

Bseevers...... thanks, good post! Disagree on ....45 though, I like the sprint, both arms pumping defensive technique!

Gman, my current thought process also, those short, 2-3 stepper stages I think I give up some time on. Timer is a coming out to solidify a good technique for me on those types of stages.

Xre,...It's hard for me to close the gap in our knowledge, spoon feed me man, or I miss the genius!

All great posts, thanks!

[XRe]

What's to spoon feed? No genius here... just a little experience based on hard work and research...

My point was, a lot of really good shooters who win really consistently break their grip on the gun when they move more than a few steps (assuming they aren't reloading). You can bet that they have evaluated the different methods and they have all arrived at that technique for a reason.

And, if you want to know for sure which works best for you, hit the range and put 'em on the clock (several times each). Actually, you should really do that anyway, for a variety of reasons. Don't take someone's word for it, even if they are a GM/M/A/whatever. Listening to their experience is not a bad thing - especially if you have no experience of your own in that area - but verify it later, just to make sure.

In this particular case, based on my own experience and the experience of working with my students, I'm confident that you will find it faster and more stable to get your weak hand off the gun once the movement takes more than a few steps (2 is only a rule of thumb, but its not a bad one). If it isn't, you probably aren't running hard enough

[TWHaz]

You can also watch, Grand Master Jojo Vidanes (2008 IPSC World Champion, Modified Pistol) from Norco Running Gun IPSC

He has some of the best youtube videos of the 2009 nationals.

Also watch him at Norco Running Gun club on Youtube.

Follow the links on the right side to more of his Youtube vids.

He uses some interesting moves in and out of positions.

In the end you have to find out what works best for YOUR BODY TYPE and shooting style.

How ???

Compare on a timer.

[Ron Ankeny]

Hmmm...I just popped a DVD of a World Shoot into the player to confirm what I already knew. The answer as to whether you should move with one or two hands on the gun is... it depends. For certain, if there is a long "sprint" everyone went to one hand to maintain balance. When moving 3-6 steps between position, some move with one hand on the gun, others do not. FWIW, Chris T. and Jojo V. move with one hand off of the gun a lot, even short distances. Others, like Max M. and JJ R. move a lot (even up to 6 steps) with both hands on the gun. Must be a body type thing going on there.