Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I believe if there was a problem, they would have chronoed through the competitor's gun. I was a little curious as to how close my PF was to the chrono at home... O.K. --- so what other parts of the rule book were ignored? Who decided this was a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Why would you put unknown ammo in a unknown pistol, too many variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I believe if there was a problem, they would have chronoed through the competitor's gun. I was a little curious as to how close my PF was to the chrono at home... O.K. --- so what other parts of the rule book were ignored? Who decided this was a good idea? Maybe it was John Amidon....the Rangemaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 From the 2008 rule book: appendix C2 32. Ammunition must be tested using the competitor’s firearm. Prior to and/or during testing, the competitor’s firearm and the component parts thereof must not be altered or modified in any way from the condition it is being used (or will be used) at the match. Violations will be subject to Section 10.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBuzzard Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 My understanding was if there were any issues with the ammo, we would have been contacted before finishing final stage. And then, invited to the chrono area, where presumably submitted ammo would be tested over chrono with the shooters gun. Saved a lot of time if you ask me......there were like 12 stages in a half day format. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Rodgers Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Sure would have been nice to see what the PF was through my gun - getting ready to load Nationals ammo and wanted verification my load was good to go. Getting the tested PF was not easy - had to search through a bucket of ammo bags at the chrono after shooting was done. The PF written on the card in the bag was much higher than was ever measured before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 I believe if there was a problem, they would have chronoed through the competitor's gun. I was a little curious as to how close my PF was to the chrono at home... O.K. --- so what other parts of the rule book were ignored? Who decided this was a good idea? Maybe it was John Amidon....the Rangemaster. John should know better..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 My understanding was if there were any issues with the ammo, we would have been contacted before finishing final stage. And then, invited to the chrono area, where presumably submitted ammo would be tested over chrono with the shooters gun.Saved a lot of time if you ask me......there were like 12 stages in a half day format. BB So they collected more than eight rounds? Whatever they were planning on firing plus eight more in case they needed to pull you/your gun to actually shoot the chrono? It's just not that hard to fit the chrono into the rotation, in compliance with the rulebook..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 So they collected more than eight rounds? Whatever they were planning on firing plus eight more in case they needed to pull you/your gun to actually shoot the chrono? It's just not that hard to fit the chrono into the rotation, in compliance with the rulebook..... Actually, they didn't say. Our squad just put in 8 rounds per past experience. Yes, the chrono could have been part of the last bay while the shooter is shooting the 3 quick stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Did anybody question this illegal procedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The Smith and Wesson Invitational and the Miller before it always ran this way. Nobody complained at the match, in fact no-one saw a problem until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Looking at the rule book, a level II match in only "recommended" to have a chrono. So even if it got tossed it doesn't affect the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Area matches are Level 3 and are required to follow the Official Chronograph procedure.....see APPENDIX A1. Might be some New York thing though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 For the record: I've been part of the match staff at an Area match, I've shot a number of them as a competitor. I'm incredibly appreciative of the effort involved in putting one on. That said, my take on these situations is that if you're already expending all of this effort, and if you have the Director of NROI as your range master, then honor all of the folks who are working hard to make the match a success and go all the way with complying with the requirements for putting on a terrific match. To do less cheats the match staff --- without whose hard work they wouldn't happen.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 There is a chrono procedure, and that ain't it. Why even have all those details written into the rule book then? Anybody that got called up because their ammo went low in the range gun...could likely get the chrono tossed from the match. (Pretty sure I could write up that arb in a minute.) [perhaps this discussion needs split out into it's own thread?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 as a future Area MD, I have fearful concerns regarding this issue. This should probably split and hope for a response from the man himself. We don't want to take anything from the match. I know how much it takes and is taking to put on a great match. I just want clairty on what I can and cannot do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 For that matter, every competitor could have refused to hand over chrono ammo. No chrono = use competitor's declared power factor..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) For that matter, every competitor could have refused to hand over chrono ammo. No chrono = use competitor's declared power factor..... Might as well have. They didn't even pull the bullets to weigh them. They asked the competitor to put down the bullet weight on the card and used that. However, I would also like to thank the match staff for their time. Edited August 10, 2009 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 This was a good match, the COFs were challenging. Personally I think too many short courses, Pit One could have been made into one more field course, otherwise OK. As for the Chrono. I did bring this up at the shooters meeting. Problems that could arise, forgetting blowing up a range gun with a competitior's ammo, a shooter that is passed through as making PF with a 125.0 or even higher or 165.0 or higher in the range gun might not have made PF with his own gun, meaning that a competitors score and placement could have been radically different if his own gun were used. This method contravenes the rules, but does seem to be the regular method in A7. (I have shot 2 or 3 A7 matches and this is how it was done each time) BTW, I would shoot A7 again regardless of how they run the chrono as it was fun. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 My thoughts on the chrono issue: From a strict constructionist view, I believe the rules were followed. Here is why: 1. Nothing in the rulebook prohibits the match director from using his/her criteria to determine what competitors to chrono. For example, if a chrono breaks half way through the match it does not mean that all competitors who previously chronoed at a power factor other than that they declared are moved back to their declared power factor. 2. The Match Director used a screening sample of one round to choose which competitors ammo was subject to the chronograph test. Competitors who were chosen to be chronographed based on the screening sample of one round through a house gun were subject to the precise chrono procedure specified in the rulebook. I am sure the match committee will discuss the chrono procedure prior to the 2010 match. I believe that the terminology was a bit imprecise. The single round through a house gun was not "Chrono test" as specified in the rulebook, but a screening procedure to see whose ammo was going to be chronographed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 With the above explanation I withdraw my opposition to the method used. We were informed that our ammo was to be chrono'd using range guns. That was not the case per Rob. our ammo MAY have been fired through a range gun and then MAY have been selected for chrono. The match can be set up so that chrono is random, not mandatory for all competitors. This obviously can speed up the match as the 'slot' in the time schedule for chrono arguably adds a stage to, or removes one from the match. And again, I want to make sure it is understood. We had a great time. We would return again if the match were to be held here. The Staff was courteous, the stages were mostly good, fair and fun. As I stated earlier, about all I'd change is swap the three stages in Pit One for one more field course. Too many short courses in my opinion. Thanks to all of you that worked to bring this match to us. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Was anyone called to chrono through their own gun? I see the Pro's and Con's for this method and I prefer this way, it just makes the day flow better and gives an added buffer incase there is an issue with your loads. I chrono the loads for my wifes gun a week before at 170, then 2 day before at 167. I was a little nervous that she may not make major. When I heard that a match gun was being used, I was relieved, knowing that her shorty would easily make major in a fullsize gun. I don't think A7 way of chronoing is any more susceptible to gaming than the normal chrono method. Cheaters will always find a way. Although we did talk about submitting squib rounds to the chrono... how funny (in a jackass kinda way) would that be. pop, son of a Bi7ch. get the squib rod, pop..WFT. Probably get DQ'ed for unsportsmans like conduct It was a good match, it ran fast and the RO did a great job. My wife and I were the outsiders in our squad, but the squad made us feel right at home. Tony from Velocityshooter.com is a riot, although you have to talk slow for that southern boy, and Dan Bedell was hanging out with the squad, its always nice to have your gunsmith at the match with you. The stages were fun. I would like to get another shot at a few of them, had a frustrating day of shooting, always seemed to screw up a good run by not giving one target the attention it needed. except for stage 7, I didn't give any of the targets the attention they deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Rob, Page 67 of the rulebook, items 28 and 32, would specifically address the issues you raised..... 28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. MatchOfficials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary. 32. Ammunition must be tested using the competitor’s firearm. Prior to and/or during testing, the competitor’s firearm and the component parts thereof must not be altered or modified in any way from the condition it is being used (or will be used) at the match. Violations will be subject to Section 10.6. (Emphasis in the above quotes mine.) We've also got item 43 --- which was probably included for safety reasons, but doesn't include language to limit it to safety. 43. The Chronograph Station is considered an official stage in the match and subject to all sections of this rule book. Hence, all competitors should have been run through chrono or there shouldn't have been a chrono at all, in which case it doesn't like look like A7 would meet Level 3 accreditation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 dang, Nik beat me too it. Chrono is mandatory for all competitors at a Level 3 match. Per the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I will follow up with some specific questions to John Amidon for a formal opinion on the chrono issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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