David Sinko Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Back to the subject of cylinder throat and bore dimensions... What are they? My old gun wouldn't shoot cast bullets at all, and if this is more of the same, I wouldn't want it at any price. Dave Sinko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 I don't have any way to measure the throat and bore dimensions, but I have the impression that the cylinders and barrels are exactly the same as those used in previous runs of the 627-4. I also have the impression that some shooters had difficulty obtaining 50-yard accuracy with these in the past, particularly if they tried to run .355" projectiles with short bearing surfaces through a tube that was better suited for bigger .357"-.358" bullets. But that's just my impression. Let me clarify something here: I'm not any huge proponent of the .38 Super revolver concept. I don't think there is anything you can do with a .38 Super revolver that can't be done just as well (or better) with a regular ol' .357 8-shot and Short Colts, speaking personally. For some shooters, though, particularly those who are already handloading for .38 Super for other guns they own, the 627-4 is a perfect addition to the stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Good Morning, I picked up my new 627-4 last night. Those grips are going to be replaced. They do not look very good and they are missing the palm swells so they feel like you are holding a target stick. For a gun costing over $1000 I am disappointed. The comp has a big blemish. The bead blast finish is gone in an area about the size of a small primer. It is hard to describe but it looks as if someone took a knife and tried to skin it right near the muzzle. The two arms on the case broke off the second time I opened the case. The front sight has a burr on the top of the end we look at while aiming. The trigger pull is interesting. It is fairly light, but it seems really long, different than my 627 PC in 357. But the worst part is while testing the trigger pull, the trigger would occasionally not return! I replace stock triggers with the 400 serrated trigger on all my Smiths and I have seen this sticking before, I am sure that I will remember what causes it once I take off the side plate. I read in one of the threads here that the gun should come with a non-ported cover to replace the comp but none was shipped with this gun. I will be contacting Tony Miele myself about this one. I contacted Hearthco and was informed that 38 Short Colt brass should fit in my Hearthco clips made for Starline 357 brass, so I am thinking of going that route. First I will have to slug the barrel and see how it is sized. Thank you, Ken Edited July 29, 2009 by SauconValley Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Good Morning, I checked some dimensions on the 627-4. The chambers are 0.386" and the throats 0.356". I slugged the barrel and the slug came out at .356" as well. Is this perhaps a compromise between the 0.355" 9mm and 38 Super and the 0.357" ? I still do not know if I will use 38 Super or 38 Short Colt in this revolver. Thank you, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Good Morning,I checked some dimensions on the 627-4. The chambers are 0.386" and the throats 0.356". I slugged the barrel and the slug came out at .356" as well. Is this perhaps a compromise between the 0.355" 9mm and 38 Super and the 0.357" ? I still do not know if I will use 38 Super or 38 Short Colt in this revolver. Thank you, Ken You may wish to try the 151 gr 38 super bullet from Rainier in your short colt brass. If I remember, I used bout 3.4 gr of Bullseye and made the ICORE power factor. Only used the load for up close, reload stages. Never really checked to see how it shot beyond 15 yds. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AultGM Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 You may wish to try the 151 gr 38 super bullet from Rainier in your short colt brass. If I remember, I used bout 3.4 gr of Bullseye and made the ICORE power factor. Only used the load for up close, reload stages. Never really checked to see how it shot beyond 15 yds. Dave I'm shooting 135RN Billy's (.358") in .38 Short Colt Starline Brass using "Economy Class" Moonclips from (2) of my 627 Supers and they print very well at all distances. I will try the 160RN next and anticipate even better results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 OK, I confess I don't understand........what is the point of shooting .38 Short Colts from a .38 Super revolver? And why would one pay a substantial premium for a 627-4 .38 Super and then shoot ammo through it that could just as easily be used in a regular 627-5 PC .357? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AultGM Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 (edited) OK, I confess I don't understand........what is the point of shooting .38 Short Colts from a .38 Super revolver? And why would one pay a substantial premium for a 627-4 .38 Super and then shoot ammo through it that could just as easily be used in a regular 627-5 PC .357? Because I can ... and, because money is no object ... Edited August 3, 2009 by AultGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 OK, I confess I don't understand........what is the point of shooting .38 Short Colts from a .38 Super revolver? And why would one pay a substantial premium for a 627-4 .38 Super and then shoot ammo through it that could just as easily be used in a regular 627-5 PC .357? Because I can ... and, because money is no object ... Well if money is no object send some my way and I will see if I can make an object out of it, $1,500 ought to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Good Morning,I checked some dimensions on the 627-4. The chambers are 0.386" and the throats 0.356". I slugged the barrel and the slug came out at .356" as well. Is this perhaps a compromise between the 0.355" 9mm and 38 Super and the 0.357" ? Ken Hi Ken No compromise going on. A 38 Super is supposed to be .356". Some of the open gun guys have been putting .355 barrels on their 38 Supers to be able to have a wider varity of bullets to choose from and shoot 9mm bullets from their 38 Supers. I have no idea why a 38 Super is .356 and a 38 Special is .357. But then I don't know why either one is called a 38 when they measure 35 something, shouldn't they be 35 caliber? Confusing indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Good Evening, On the way home from a service call, I stopped at Cabela's and picked up 200 38 Super cases. I will give them a try with 158 grain Berry's and make a steel and ICORE load. I guess that I will have to buy some dies and a shell plate. I was hoping that I could use 9mm dies, but the case dimensions are not close enough. Carmoney: There is need and there is want. I suppose that all any of us need would be a 686 and 625. We could shoot both divisions in IDPA as well as steel, USPSA and ICORE. Now want is something else entirely, and it may just defy logic! Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIGUY Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 The grips are not true Jerry grips, don't know what that's all about, they're some sort of crappy lamo wood and feel horrendous. There is no non-comp muzzle cap included in the package, and no rubber Hogue grips included either. But otherwise, the guns look great, and are just like the old production run of 627-4s! Now those are some UGLY grips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Carmoney: There is need and there is want. I understand that completely, Ken. What I don't understand is why anyone would shoot .38 Short Colts out of a .38 Super! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 No compromise going on. A 38 Super is supposed to be .356". Some of the open gun guys have been putting .355 barrels on their 38 Supers to be able to have a wider varity of bullets to choose from and shoot 9mm bullets from their 38 Supers. I have no idea why a 38 Super is .356 and a 38 Special is .357. But then I don't know why either one is called a 38 when they measure 35 something, shouldn't they be 35 caliber? Confusing indeed. Thanks Gregg, I learned something new! I had been under the assumption that 38 Super was 0.355 diameter. Should have Googled it long ago (where's Flex with the "use the search" suggestion)... SAAMI bullet diameter specification is 0.356 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super http://38super.net/ Interestingly, most ammo manufacturers appear to be loading 38 Super with bullets that are .355 or .3555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&WIowegan Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 One part of the equation in shooting .38 Short Colt in a .38 Super cylinder is that the Short Colt brass will in fact be blown out to .38 Super dimensions. I had a 686 reamed to .38 Super. I can still shoot .38 Special and .357 Mags. in the gun but the brass definitely blows out. Notice I did not say blows UP! I think it's still safe to do but the brass life will probably be shortened. Bob A16841 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 One part of the equation in shooting .38 Short Colt in a .38 Super cylinder is that the Short Colt brass will in fact be blown out to .38 Super dimensions. I had a 686 reamed to .38 Super. I can still shoot .38 Special and .357 Mags. in the gun but the brass definitely blows out. Notice I did not say blows UP! I think it's still safe to do but the brass life will probably be shortened.Bob A16841 I would think that after the Short Colt brass has been fireformed to the 38 Super chamber that you would use a 38 Super sizing die to keep from overworking your brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakbagr Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Very interesting thread, thanks, guys. Got a chance to play with some loads tonight with the new 'Carmonized' .38 Super. Thanks, Mike for a fabulous job with the sight and action. Just a sweetheart and lots of fun to shoot in an N revolver. A question to the folks reading the thread...I shot a bunch of Ranier 130gr RNs, diameter, .356. Also some 122 gr LFP Tennesse Valleys. While the gun was fine and a pleasure to shoot (did I say, thanks again, Mike?), I had the devil getting the gun to shoot groups or even consistenly to the same POA. Moved the targe in to 15 yards. 2 shots a couple of inches apart, then a third 4" in a different direction. This happened both horizontally and vertically. I do lots of pistol shooting, but shooting off a towel padded rest, after an evening of shooting, I still can't say the gun is now sighted in. I didn't have many of the LFPs, but at .355, the gun seemed to be shooting closer to POA. Very strange, I'd reset the sights to bring the bullets closer to where I was aiming, and the next group would be farther out or a flyer. Any suggestions? I'd rather not spend a ton of $$ buying all sorts of bullets if anyone knows what the 627-4 likes in a bullet diameter. I know this happens to everyone - a fun night but with the edge somewhat taken off by not being any further ahead by the time you get home that when you left the house. Was hoping to use the gun in a match before too long, but am wondering what gun to use. Was using 231 this evening with both bullets. Thanks, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Check to see if there is leading in the forcing cone area and forward. That is one thing that will cause what you describe. If so, clean it out and use 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints in .357 dia. They should load in 38 super cases just fine. should get good accuracy out to 50 yd. 231 is a good powder. I would stick with it. You will probably get your best accuracy with the 125 gr. jhp between 1000 and 1100 fps. Edited August 7, 2009 by Toolguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I would also try some heavier bullets, 147 and up sized at least .356 - .358. If they are indeed the same barrels from the last batch you will need to run a heavier oversized bullet for best accuracy(dont remember if 1-10 or 1-16 twist). That is why a bunch of them got aftermarket barrels for shooting .355 jacketed type bullets for steel and accuracy matches...... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&WIowegan Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 When you are running lead bullets at low velocities and powder charges, you need to use an oversized bullet to get the bullet to engage the rifling. That is what's going on....same symptoms as if the bore was heavily leaded. OR, you can use jacketed bullets. Pick your solution. Just make sure you load the jacketed bullets hot enough to get through the barrel. Have fun, Bob A16841 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peakbagr Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Thanks guys. The gun is brand new, these were the first 50 or 60 rounds thru it. Inconsistent from the get go. Using Rainiers until I thru a few cast bullets. I'd have to go check, but think I was using 5gr of 231 which is fairly speedy. I do all sorts of load developemeny for .38, .357, .45 and 9mm and I've never had problems like this getting a gun to group. I know the 627 is not designed as a target gun, but my Les Baer .38 Super fires just about any load or bullet thru the same hole off a rest at 25 yds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Might be a good idea to measure the cylinder throat diameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 8, 2009 Author Share Posted August 8, 2009 One part of the equation in shooting .38 Short Colt in a .38 Super cylinder is that the Short Colt brass will in fact be blown out to .38 Super dimensions. I had a 686 reamed to .38 Super. I tried this today, just for kicks. The Short Colts in Hearthco moons dropped right in, but the brass definitely expanded, to the point that extraction was affected. Also, there must be a bit more headspace with the Short Colts, because I experienced 50% misfires in a 627-4 that is dead reliable with .38 Super ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Maybe the 38 Super clips are thicker than the 38 Short Colt ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyinAZ Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 38 super clips are .035" and short colts are .025" i believe. so .010" difference will make it go click i guess Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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