CSEMARTIN Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Does dropping the slide on an empty chamber actually damage a 1911 trigger job? I know a lot of people believe you absolutely should not do this, but does anyone have proof that the trigger job is damaged? Has anyone looked at the sear/hammer engagement before and after dropping the slide a bunch of times? Do problems develop which were not there before (e.g., hammer follow, doubles, etc.)? What are you basing your opinion on? I have to admit, I've perpetuated this belief, but my opinion is based on what I've heard. I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 do a search, there's been several threads on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) I drop the slide empty on my guns every couple or several thousand and do it a couple times, if the hammer follows there is a problem coming. I use it as a health and welfare check. Here is the thing, you can get the hammer and sear to bounce a little when you do it. If the geometry is right, the parts haven't worn and the spring tensions are right life is good. No harm no foul. If something isn't quite right the hammer can follow. If it does you need professional assistance NOW. I don't do it ALL the time, but I am convinced that doing it occasionally is a healthy activity. If you are told you can't do it occasionally as a preventative measure I propose that the parts used are inferior or the work on the parts was inferior or that you are being misguided. EDIT: spelling Edited July 2, 2009 by HSMITH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) do a search, there's been several threads on this. I just did a search and came up dry. Perhaps I should have done a search first, but I have come to this board multiple times a day for several years, and I have never come across a thread that will answer my question. I did find some threads that perpetuated a belief that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is a bad thing (but without any proof to back it up). I agree with Howard. Dropping the slide can identify a problem. But does that mean dropping the slide can cause a problem? Edited July 2, 2009 by CSEMARTIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 do a search, there's been several threads on this. I just did a search and came up dry. Perhaps I should have done a search first, but I have come to this board multiple times a day for several years, and I have never come across a thread that will answer my question. I did find some threads that perpetuated a belief that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is a bad thing (but without any proof to back it up). I agree with Howard. Dropping the slide can identify a problem. But does that mean dropping the slide can cause a problem? Dropping the slide causes no damage whatsoever. Hammer follow to half cocok causes the damage. Dropping the slide repeatedly will damage your slide stop pin hole/barrel fit before it ever damages your hammer sear engagement. It just unmasks a bad situation like too little engagment, not enough spring tension, misaligned pin holes, incorrect hammer hook height, angle, finish, a multitude of sear issues.etc etc No one has ever shown evidence to the contrary. Its a gunsmith jedi mind trick. Its right up there with buy this full length guide rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 How is dropping a slide on an empty gun different from those of us who don't want the slide to lock back on the last shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I have been doing it occasionally for a lot of years on many different 1911s with zero ill effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I know that the slide has been dropped on my Open gun hundreds of times by both of the previous owners (both GM's) and it hasn't hurt the 12oz trigger pull at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Mr. HSMITH, has as usual, excellent points. In addition to his info I can only think of the beating the mating and stop surfaces take without the "cushioning effect" of rounds making the journey from magazine to chamber. This "cushioning" is visible on the high speed video that Virgil Tripp has on his web site. The effects of 9# spring and a light slide in an Open gun would certainly be less than my single stack with an #18 spring. I suspect that a "hammer follow" test would point to a "bad trigger job" in the above SS when it would be fine in the Open gun. Maybe not bad just not application correct. I don't feel this is just a 1911/2011 issue, steel beating steel will take its toll no matter the pistol. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 When I purchased my new first 1911, I dropped the slide all the time. Trigger job lasted less then 6 months before started to follow and double. Replaced sear and hammer, stopped dropping the slide and it has lasted for over 5 years. Know of several others that have had the same thing happen. Just my experiences. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I don't do it with a 1911. It can mess up the trigger job. Several years ago I took it to an extreme to see for myself. I used an extra power hammer spring, extra power recoil spring and dropped the slide on an empty chamber (slingshotted the slide) about 20+ times (this was 10+ years ago and I don't remember the exact #.) I took out the sear and looked at it's face. The sear was noticeably peaned. If you take a look at how it generally works... the slide hits the back of the round in the magazine and strips it off and shoves it into the chamber. This noticeably decreases the slide's speed. If you don't have that round to slow down the slide the hammer's hook is smacking against the sear's face at a much greater speed. If you have an old sear and hammer and an extra power hammer spring (and maybe and extra power recoil spring)... see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 I don't do it with a 1911. It can mess up the trigger job.Several years ago I took it to an extreme to see for myself. I used an extra power hammer spring, extra power recoil spring and dropped the slide on an empty chamber (slingshotted the slide) about 20+ times (this was 10+ years ago and I don't remember the exact #.) I took out the sear and looked at it's face. The sear was noticeably peaned. If you take a look at how it generally works... the slide hits the back of the round in the magazine and strips it off and shoves it into the chamber. This noticeably decreases the slide's speed. If you don't have that round to slow down the slide the hammer's hook is smacking against the sear's face at a much greater speed. If you have an old sear and hammer and an extra power hammer spring (and maybe and extra power recoil spring)... see for yourself. If this were the case every 1911 ever issued by the Government would have unsafe hammer/sear engagment due to sear nose peening. The slides on those guns were dropped thousands of times during the course of their lifetime and they all had heavy, all steel triggers. These guns slides were often dropped so much that slide stop pin holes are ovaled on well used examples. If slide velocity causes sear nose peening, how could a 10mm, 460 Rowland, .45 Super ever hold a trigger job? The round doesn't cushion the blow that much in a gun with a 24-28 lb recoil spring. GI guns have 15 pound nominal springs. Sear deformation is a result of incorrect angles, hammer follow or incorrect part hardness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Like I said... try it for yourself. Or better yet, get a $80-150 dollar trigger job and drop the slide on an empty chamber multiple times. See how long it lasts for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Like I said... try it for yourself.Or better yet, get a $80-150 dollar trigger job and drop the slide on an empty chamber multiple times. See how long it lasts for you. I do it all the time. As long as the hammer doesn't follow, its moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well I don't. If you are confident that it doesn't, put an extra power hammer spring and an extra power recoil spring and sling shot the slide a 30-100 times on an empty chamber. Then go practice with it. Video tape it so we can see that I'm FOS. This is with a <2 lb trigger job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaass Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) How is dropping a slide on an empty gun different from those of us who don't want the slide to lock back on the last shot? You are holding the trigger down in the later case. Edited July 3, 2009 by jmaass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Well I don't.If you are confident that it doesn't, put an extra power hammer spring and an extra power recoil spring and sling shot the slide a 30-100 times on an empty chamber. Then go practice with it. Video tape it so we can see that I'm FOS. This is with a <2 lb trigger job. Again, as along as the hammer doesn't follow its moot. There will be no damage unless your parts are soft or have incorrect geometry (Burr on sear edge, burr on hammer face) in which case, normal shooting will cause the same damage. Taking a gun with a 2lb trigger (light sear spring tension) and dropping the slide with a heavy (>16 lb) recoil spring is asking for hammer follow based on sheer interia resulting in trigger bounce. It has little to do with engagment or geometry at those spring weights. The trigger stays stationary while the gun slaps together, the trigger trips the disconnector which carries the sear to the half cock notch. This Hammer follow is what causes the damage. Not dropping the slide. If you have a proper trigger job you can drop the slide on the same gun with a 10-12 pound spring all day long and it won't follow and won't cause any damage. Put more weight on the trigger and disconnector via the flat spring and you can keep the parts from moving and crashing into the trigger when you drop the slide. There is a formula for each gun based on many variables-trigger MASS, Trigger Pre-Travel, hammer/sear engagement, spring tension and inertia (caused by weight of recoil spring). You can run a heavy steel trigger if you have heavy spring tension, heavy engagment, and average recoil spring-this describes a mil-spec 1911. Slides were dropped thousands of times on these guns, safely. A lighter trigger (aluminum or even better plastic and ti) will give you more insurance hammer follow. More precise parts, mated to each particular gun's geometry will give you even more insurance. Lighter recoil spring (less inertai) will give you more insurance. I have proven this multiple times with multiple pistols. Its the follow, not the slide drop. Take a 1911 and run a sharpie on the hooks and sear nose. Drop the slide 100 times. It will be uneventful unless your hammer follows. Edited July 3, 2009 by Anthony Lombardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well I don't.If you are confident that it doesn't, put an extra power hammer spring and an extra power recoil spring and sling shot the slide a 30-100 times on an empty chamber. Then go practice with it. Video tape it so we can see that I'm FOS. This is with a <2 lb trigger job. I understand that you don't like to do this. But, why in the world would I put over power hammer and recoil springs and intentionally try to bugger up my trigger job to prove a point. I equate that with putting nitrous on a stock volkswagon engine and racing it in the 1/4 mile a few dozen times and then expecting it to run well again as a street car. everyone has a different take on it. Mr. Martin, thanks for bringing it up. just my $.02 worth dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) But, why in the world would I put over power hammer and recoil springs and intentionally try to bugger up my trigger job to prove a point. I equate that with putting nitrous on a stock volkswagon engine and racing it in the 1/4 mile a few dozen times and then expecting it to run well again as a street car. I had an old sear and hammer just laying around. And the thing is I didn't know beforehand it would get f'd up as bad as it did. But if you read Lombardo's post... nothing will happen unless it follows. It never followed. So the peaning of the sear was just my imagination. Edited July 3, 2009 by Religious Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Everybody is entitled to their opinion. If we ridicule each others opinion this place will turn into another GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 But, why in the world would I put over power hammer and recoil springs and intentionally try to bugger up my trigger job to prove a point. I equate that with putting nitrous on a stock volkswagon engine and racing it in the 1/4 mile a few dozen times and then expecting it to run well again as a street car. I had an old sear and hammer just laying around. And the thing is I didn't know beforehand it would get f'd up as bad as it did. But if you read Lombardo's post... nothing will happen unless it follows. It never followed. So the peaning of the sear was just my imagination. Maybe so. Or Maybe your hammer/sear weren't compatible? As I am sure you are aware, hammer and sear geometries are all across the map. If you take just any castoff hammer and sear from fifferent vendors and reduce the trigger to two pounds like you say you did well I would not be surprised that it followed the first try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo Boy Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Its right up there with buy this full length guide rod. I could swear my groups tightened up 50% or more after install of the full-length guide rod. Maybe it was just the reliability that went thru the roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 the main question is. Are you willing to take the chance????? Me i will continue to manually cycle the slide with the trigger pulled, and ease my slide down on a empty chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Everybody is entitled to their opinion. If we ridicule each others opinion this place will turn into another GT. fair enuf obtw, I don't drop my slide unless it is picking up a bullet from a magazine. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I only drop mine every now and then to check for potential problems. I don't know if it hurts it or not but I can see where it could so I don't do it very often. I would not do it to another man's 1911 so I don't do it to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts