Proposed Uspsa Production Rule Change

[diehli]

Boudrie and Christianson.

Well, at least that's how I read their email replies. Durn it, Duane, why's you gotta get peeps all riled?

[Ron Ankeny]

Duane:

That's what I want for USPSA in Limited-10, that a significant percentage of the thousands of people out there carrying a singlestack 1911 in a Blade-Tech or Kramer or Fobus or Uncle Mike's or whatever will look at the sport and say, "There's this match, the equipment I have is good enough, I'm gonna go."

I couldn't agree more. Heck of it is, a 1911 in an Uncle Mike's is good enough under the current rules so why the big push for a change?

[HI5-O]

Why not leave L10 alone and just add: single stack, standard length mags, behind the hip to Production Division? If I wanted to carry my gun & mags behind my hip, I'd be shooting my Glock in Production or IDPA.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

OK, I'm going to jump into the deep end and, in the process, probably get myself into deep doo-doo. Anyway, this is the gospel according to Darth:

Ramblings:

1. The creation of Limited 10 Division was a mistake, because divisions are fundamentally supposed to separate guns, not just magazines. Good course design, in compliance with the rules, would not give standard capacity (+10 round) magazines an edge over 10 round reduced capacity magazines in well-constructed COF.

2. In any case, the creation of Limited 10 Division failed to address an identical "reduced capacity magazine problem" faced by those shooting Open Division. In other words, Limited 10 was only "half-a-fix", however I still maintain that Limited 10 was an unneccessary knee-jerk reaction to the "Crime Bill".

3. Moreover, having two divisions which are identical, save and except for the number of rounds loaded, encourages "trophy hunters". In other words, a guy with a Limited gun and standard capacity magazines can go to a match, check the registrations, and decide whether Limited or Limited 10 gives him the best chance to win something, however this option is not available to guys who only have reduced capacity magazines. Hence Limited 10 actually discriminates against those that it was supposed to assist.

4. Although I think it's another "partial fix", a "behind the hip bone" rule for Limited 10 would further separate the two Limited divisions, and it would also serve to place an additonal differential criteria in respect of classifiers, because magazine capacity alone is not sufficient to justify separate classifications. And, for God's sake, what's the big deal with having to move your equipment on your belt between Limited and Limited 10 matches?

5. Single stacks - the USA probably has far more single-stack users than anywhere else in the world due to CCW laws, so I think it would have made more sense to create a Single Stack Division for typical single action CCW guns (i.e. no scopes, ports or comps). This would also allow greater crossover between USPSA and IDPA.

6. The primary criteria behind Production Division was "no single action pistols" - period - and that's not going to change in a million years. Single action pistols overwhelmingly dominate Open, Limited & Limited 10 (Open, Standard & Modified in IPSC), so there's absolutely nothing to be gained by allowing single action pistols to compete in Production Division, but we'd definitely alienate (and probably lose) the guys shooting double action Glocks, CZ, Beretta, H&K etc. who currently dominate Production Division. Bottom line - Limited/L10 and Production are mutually exclusive.

Solutions:

8. Retain Limited 10 "as is" and kill off Limited. This means the guys with standard capacity magazines who currently shoot Limited must "download" to 10 rounds for competition purposes, but they don't lose their standard capacity magazines and they can continue to load them to full capacity for CCW or other purposes. This means everybody with a Limited gun competes at USPSA matches on a level playing field, and the fading art of reloading on the move will also get a huge shot in the arm. And whether the "Crime Bill" sunsets or not is moot.

9. Introduce a Single-Stack Division. This would encourage more IDPA types to shoot USPSA matches, it would eliminate arguments about wide bodies having a reloading edge over narrow bodies, and we'd finally be giving a home to the many thousands of people in the USA who carry single stack, single action CCW pistols.

Yes, I realise these solutions still don't address the issue of "Open 10" but, judging from the comments I've read here and in other forums, the priimary concern of most USPSA competitors are the lack of a home for Single-Stacks and the inconsequential difference between Limited and Limited 10.

Well, that's it folks. I'm retiring to my bunker now ..............

[mactiger]

Even though I was on the board when we introduced L-10 and Production, I'll say that after considering the way the L-10 division has gone, and the problems I've seen associated with it at matches, Single Stack Limited would have been a better idea. The intent was not to alienate shooters who had double column magazines that only held 10 rounds, but it's pretty obvious now that those shooters are in the very vast minority. While I don't think that eliminating Limited in favor of Limited 10, as Vince suggests, is a good idea, I do like the single stack idea. And, as someone else mentioned previously, a lot of other people do, too. At least, that's what I've heard in many of my seminars.

[Sam]

Duane, you're a hero! I took such a flaming over this same topic a year ago that I didn't think anyone would bring it up again. People get real pissy when you try to change their costume.

Officially, I've decided to let this sleeping grizzly lie. But, I have since begun shooting my own version of freestyle. I'm using a Bladetec or Uncle Mikes holster behind the hip and only one mag carrier in front of the hip. The mag position makes a difference to my speed, the holster position does not. It's easy to go that far. I've noticed a few good local shooters switching to kydex holsters. It's just more comfortable to many of us.

If most people want to use so called speed holsters and wide body guns in L-10, the rules should stay the way they are. I prefer my carry holster and my SS .45 and I'm willing to give up any advantage real or imagined that the other costume provides in order to do it my way. If we make it to the Street Gun Nats this year, I'll look you up and slap you a high five.

[Chuck D]

The way L10 division is run now...it's all inclusive.

Got a Glock, STI/SV/Para...it's all good.

Own a race rig...you can use it.

Wanna use a "carry gun rig"...you can use it.

Two MAJOR flaws with the theories addressed above in regards to L10 divisional changes.

1st. Restricting L10 division to Single Stack only guns alienates the rest of us whom don't own or wish to use SS guns. The argument that they can "go elsewhere" is arrogant. I'm already here...with my SVI in 45acp. Why should I leave a division that I supported and lobbied for since the divisions creation so "others" can have a SS "safe haven" all their very own? This rationale of forcing non SS gun users/owners elsewhere is worst kind of all kinds of bullshit I've EVER heard since I joined this organization in 1987. I don't know where the idea comes that there is large support for this plan but every poll and/or forum I've ever read strongly favors L10 division as it is now by a fair majority. L10 is by far the most successful of the three new divisions...by all means lets screw with it.

2nd. Consider this . During the IPSC vs. USPSA wars of only a few years ago, there was a conserted effort by an admitted minority (I being the most vocal) to "streamline" the divisions to bring the rules between IPSC and USPSA divisions closer together. One of the ideas I floated was to adopt IPSC rules for Standard Division sans one, magazine length. My main issue was mag and holster placement. IPSC requires holster and mag pouches be at or behind the hipbone. I was "lambasted" everytime I brought it up. NOW it seems to be "acceptable" to the so-called "throngs" of people clamoring for this change in L10 division. Answer me this...why is it o.k. for L10 to implement IPSC style rules regarding holster and mag placement but it isn't o.k. for Limited Division shooters to do the same?

It is critical to understand WHY L10 was created in the first place. The United States is a 10 round only country. Several of USPSA's member states are 10 round only REGARDLESS of what happens to the 1994 Crime Bill at the Federal Level. L10 was created to allow those of us that live under these rules to be able to visit the local gun shop...plop down some good old American green and buy LEGALLY OBTAINABLE equipment in which to compete. ALL GUNS SOLD IN THE U.S. FOR CIVILIAN USE ARE SHIPPED WITH 10 ROUND ONLY MAGS. L10 and Production Division are divisions suitable for this "legally obtainable" gear.Lets face facts, not many "new members" are going to XYZ gun shop and buying a new Open gun. Their buying "stock type" guns like 1911's, Para's and Glocks. It certainly is not my intention to blame USPSA for not creating an Open 10 division...it should have and it will eventually have to especially if the 1994 Crime Bill provisions are not allowed to sunset. For people...especially Vince to say that L10 was a mistake is unbelievable. What does Vince know about U.S. laws ...especially what hoops I have to jump through in Upstate N.Y. just to be able to shoot this game. I'm no expert on Hong Kong and I can say with "reasonable certainty" he's no expert on New York State.

Butcher up and/or eliminate L10....color me gone. I'm not about to go out and buy ANOTHER gun because USPSA saw fit to "admonish" what I already own. I refuse to join the "class B felon club" by obtaining "replacement parts" and assembling illegal mags so I can be competitive in Limited Division when I choose to leave the state for a Sectional, Area or Nationals and I refuse to borrow gear and hope that it works under the same circumstances. Ask yourself this...if those in favor ot these changes inplement them and the results are "less than stellar" ....what will you try next?

If your truly interested in keeping the members that you have and getting some new ones that will stay around awhile...implement some rules STABILITY for a reasonable period of time. By the way Duane...are you "jazzed" up enough to buy my new Safariland Levitation rig off of me if I can't use it after the November BOD's meeting?

[Run n Gun]

On one hand you all say how L10 is bringing the most NEW shooters to the sport and in the same breath you talk about changing it! It never ceases to AMAZE ME how you “gray beards” can completely miss a major point about L10.

I’m one of those new shooters and I can remember what brought me into this sport and I VERY actively recruit new guys (two yesterday!) so I think that I speak accurately as to what draws new shooters in, at least locally.

After their eyes get bright with initial explanation of what we do, after we get them to the match and then loan them ammo or mags and mag pouches and coach encourage and praise them, THEY’RE HOOKED and want to know what they need to do this again. The standard reply is; “ go buy a $20 Kydex holster and a double mag pouch and have at least 3 magazines and 150 rounds of ammo and we’ll see you here next month”! Their eyes INVARIABLY drift down to our race gear and they ask questions about it like “where can I get STUFF like that!” Patience lad, learn the game, develop your skills look at what other people use and then upgrade your “stuff” a little at time.

The major point you guys miss is HUGE draw the race gear has! The “COOL FACTOR” is off the charts! The beauty of it is you don’t NEED to spend the money on it to get started and when you get very experienced, you probably don’t NEED it to win! Just wearing the stuff makes you feel like a SERIOUS competitor, like there’s no impediment left between you and your goal of being the best gunslinger out there. The gun and gear and division are intertwined in the minds of most L10 shooters, absolutely inseparable, change one and it’s NOT the sport we bought into. Change one and you’ll force us to completely reevaluate our level of participation. Draconian anti-freestyle rules are going to COST you shooters. So Vince and Duane, the “little” thing like moving the holster behind the hip WILL have profound, albeit, negative effects!

One more time, L10 is just FINE the way it is. Single stack division, please… If the Glock Boys want to come out and play… bring it on! Those mean “trophy hunters” coming down from Limited to pick on us poor little L10 guys? Most of the guys that are shooting Limited have been in this sport a lot longer that us “new” L10 guys and they have more experience than us (duh) and for the most part experience wins. So. We’ll get better with time (if allowed to) and those guys are just getting older! I did some research on some of the “big dogs” (A-M) and their first classifier scores weren’t any better than ours. Given the opportunity it will all even out.

Ed

[Vince Pinto]

Um guys,

Did you actually read my proposal or do you just go into "Tora, Tora, Tora" mode whenever you see the words "Limited 10".

I did not suggest changing or eliminating Limited 10.

I did not suggest restricting L10 division to Single Stack guns only.

I suggested dropping Limited (that's the one without the "10" after it). The actual words I used were 8. Retain Limited 10 "as is" and kill off Limited, and "as is" includes the existing freestyle holster position. This way, everybody in the USPSA with a Limited gun can play on a level playing field - those with 10 round magzines will be able to compete toe-to-toe with those who have the benefit of standard capacity magazines, because everybody will be restricted to 10 rounds loaded. This would also elimnate the need for Limited and L10 classifiers.

And I suggested creating a new Single Stack division. Capish? The end result would be:

1) Single action double stack guns would all compete in Limited 10 Division;

2) Single action single stack guns would compete in Single Stack Division;

3) Double action guns would continue to compete in Production Division.

4) And Trekkies would continue to compete in Open Division.

5) And Revolver guys still have their own home.

Did I miss anybody? Would anybody lose any money (or sleep) with my proposal?

Now, please, take a minute to read what I actually said, and let me know if it will fly, instead of just taking your ball and going home.

[Jake Di Vita]

Vince,

I think your idea is the best I've heard yet. The only problem I see is with Limited shooters being ticked off about spending a mint on their mags that are now un-needed.

Most people can barely justify spending $500 of pieces of hollow metal with springs in them. I doubt they would be happy to be told that they aren't need anymore, but who knows?

[Vince Pinto]

Jake,

Thanks for not spanking me

Yes, I thought about the big sticks, but I think they would still be a valuable commodity if the Crime Bill is renewed, because they have a "manufactured by" date. They would actually lose value if the Crime Bill was to sunset, but that's beyond our control.

And (correct me if I'm wrong), standard capacity mags only increased in value due to the Crime Bill, not because of the introduction of L10.

Worst case, there must be a bunch of Open Division shooters who would love to buy some legal "pre-ban" mags.

[Run n Gun]

Dear Uncle Vinny,

Just for the record the only part of my post that was directed at you was your reference: “And, for God's sake, what's the big deal with having to move your equipment on your belt between Limited and Limited 10 matches?” and the reference to “trophy hunters”, most of the rest was aimed at “the powers that be”.

I’ve been trying to stick to the facts as I know them but if you want my opinion here goes: All of these “problems” would go away if the USPSA had the guts to limit ALL magazines to 10 rounds! The Limited vs. Limited-10 thing would go away, people from ALL states could compete equally, we as an organization, aren’t promoting (not so) indirectly, felonious behavior and the very worst thing that would happen is you’d actually be forced to practice a fundamental shooting skill, reloading! Just think of it, a proactive move to deal with the real world (or at least the US) instead of burying or heads in the sand and hope it all goes away.

So, bottom line: I agree with the idea to lose Limited and if we do, there is absolutely NO reason for a Single Stack division.

Ed

[Jake Di Vita]

Ok, I may be slow, but how is shooting standard capacity magazines akin to burying your head in the sand?

[twix]

Ok then VP. This proposal actually makes some sense. Open is still open. The other divisions will have to plan their reloads and shoot accordingly.

The Glock 35 is pretty popular because of it's versatility. Is it still legal for Limited and SS?

Most people who shoot Glocks in the US like to modify the trigger. And where does the SA Croation HS 2000 fit?

[kindlyoldcoach]

Ok, I may be slow, but how is shooting standard capacity magazines akin to burying your head in the sand?

Wild-ass guess by a furriner:

Because it would be a case of a US national shooting sports organization voluntarily adopting a magazine capacity law, even though the magazines themselves are not illegal.

USPSA would be perceived to be rolling itself in flour and jumping into Wendy Cukier's pan.

[Jake Di Vita]

The G35 should be legal for Limited, but not SS. Last time I check it was double stacked...

[Chuck D]

Well Vince....how about this....

Limited Division...leave it as it is for the benefit of those whom have substantial investments in equipment they ALREADY own. These shooters are not hurting anyone or anything. It's not BROKE so let's not try and FIX it.

L10 Division...leave it as it is for the benefit of those that NEED it. You know...the guys/gals whom have the unfortunate luck of living in "10 round only" localities. Besides, unless the 1994 Crime Bill sunsets ( I wouldn't bet my last dollar on it) ALL guns come from the factory with 10 round only magazines. L10 isn't BROKE so lets stop trying to FIX it as well.

Reevaluate the situation AFTER the decision has been made regarding the sunset provisions. We may in fact need to make ALL divisions 10 round only. If not...great. At least we have two divisions (L10 and Production) for the "unfortunate" amongst us to compete in without handicap.

Single Stack owners have a home in L10. I oppose STRONGLY the implication that we need to "evict" those whom don't use SS guns from L10 because an element of the SS population wants their own safe haven. If you want a SS only gig...join the 1911 Society.

Holster requirements...no one has yet to answer my question of why L10 is suitable for IPSC style rules and Limited isn't. Could it be that the real reason behind the "change L10" lobby is that by doing so...IDPA members will "flock" back to USPSA ? If that's what your counting on...good luck. I really couldn't care less where I have to wear my gear...just don't tell me (and others) that the gear we already own and use (rule book legal gear by the way) isn't "valid" anymore because we need to "appease" to the carry gun and IDPA crowd. If either party cared ...they never would have left anyway.

Sometime,Somehow,Someway people HAVE to realize that we can't keep members or gain new ones by finding ways to "devalue" equipment they already own and force them to buy new gear to conform with the 'TREND OF THE DAY". I as i'm sure others as well get really sick and tired of having to defend this division against those whom would tear it apart because they are busy trying to stake out some terrirory for themselves. We need to be inclusive...ALL INCLUSIVE...whenever possible.

Still think L10 is a mistake?......Try living in N.Y. or Calif. OR Mass. for a while then rethink the "mistake" comment. I'd dare say that you'd reach a different conclusion.

As far as "taking my ball and going home" is concerned...one can take just so much of "change this and change that" . Changes have financial implications. Show me a "necessary" change and I'll go along with it. Show me some "half-assed" change that's being made to appease a certain segment of the shooting population and I'm no longer interested...period. I already have a closet FULL of outlawed gear thanks to the "rule of the week" program we have here in USPSA/IPSC. I've had enough... If the decision is made that L10 is a SS only game...it means that I as well as EVERYONE else that chooses to use non-1911 gear is no longer welcome in L10 division. We're second class members, loyal members whom are being "displaced" for reasons that make no sense. Can you tell me Vince where membership has ever GROWN by EXCLUDING a portion of the potential membership from a previously enjoyed activity ?

L10 did not nor does it effect any other division in USPSA or IPSC competition. It exists solely for the benefit of those of us stuck with 10 round magazines. L10 competitors ask for no changes in other divisions...let them be...members obviously enjoy them. Is it too much to ask that L10 shooters be afforded the same common courtesy?

[Jake Di Vita]

Nevermind...

[shred]

very worst thing that would happen is you’d actually be forced to practice a fundamental shooting skill, reloading!

Can somebody explain to me how reloading is a shooting skill? I'm not sure I get it. Sure it's nice to have more ammo and all, but a fundamental shooting skill?? Millions of people shoot millions of rounds and never need to do a speed reload, tac-load or reload with retention.

Maybe a fundamental IPSC or IDPA skill, but that's only because of the rules we use.. anyway..

To try and get back on topic, what is a single-stack? Is it a Glock 35 with a 10-round magazine (the one I have is single-stacked). Is it only 1911-patterns? How about a STI with a single-stack grip? Or a STI with the new single-stack widebody magazine? How much vairiation from a straight line is "single" stacked? How about a 1-1/2 stacked magazine? This is a world of hurt we don't need.

[Nik Habicht]

I shoot mostly Production. I've never shot revolver. I've shot a fair amount of Limited --- mostly in the beginning when I wanted to compete in what I perceived to be the big boys iron sight club --- either shooting the G34 minor, or the G21 major. I shot my first sectional match in Limited division with a 1911. I've shot some L10 --- I've got six classifiers on record --- and I broke out the 1911 today and shot the match in L10 partly because of this thread and others like it. I used racegun mag holders and usually skipped over the first mag, being more used to production mag pouch placement rules... I used a Blade-Tech holster behind the hip simply because I'm more used to drawing from that location ---- I did try to do a little dryfire with the Safariland 012 last night, but couldn't get my confidence level high enough to chance using that holster. Figured I'd have enough trouble hitting the safety, mag release and finding the darn front sight.

Whats the point of this rambling mess? I became a match director a few months ago and spent some time conversing with George Jones (A8 Director) today. My take is that the divisions should stay as is. Yes, in a perfect world it would be nice if the divisions and rules were the same everywhere ---- but it's not a perfect world. There are thousands of shooters in the U.S. who have bought equipment specifically to play in specific divisions over the last few years ---- and I oppose any change that will impact any of these people financially at this time. Let's have some stability! Yes, anyone wishing to compete overseas will have to buy some additional equipment or will have to move/change modify some things to be good to go. While I'm sure there are a significant number of competitors traveling the world to shoot IPSC matches --- or shooting them along the way --- I believe there is an even larger number of competitors who only shoot the game on the local level. After the crime bill issue is settled, we may have to look at making some changes ---- that however does not mean that we have to make capricious changes now.

According to George, the feedback on L10 from the Area 8 membership overwhelmingly favored leaving it as is. I tend to favor an inclusive policy rather than an exclusive one ---- I want people to be able to use their Glock, Sig, Beretta, et. al. in all four divisions, their 1911s in three, their revolvers in four, etc.

I shoot the same gun most of the year --- and I spend most of that time in Production, because I regularly have the privilege to shoot against a GM and a couple of Masters. If those guys decide to switch to L10, I want to be able to take my Glock if I choose and chase them there.... I want everyone else to be able to do the same....

[Duane Thomas]

By the way Duane...are you "jazzed" up enough to buy my new Safariland Levitation rig off of me if I can't use it after the November BOD's meeting?

Dude, I'm probably not going to be using my Safariland race holster anymore.

[Duane Thomas]

Went out and shot my first USPSA match today with my carry gear (Blade-Tech SBH, Blade-Tech double mag pouch) in concealable position. Came in 2nd Lim-10 (97.242% if memory serves me correctly). This is a club with a lot of good Lim-10 shooters; I've only ever come in 2nd there once before. I didn't really feel disadvantaged running my carry gear versus the Safariland race rig.

To quote Brian: basically, I dug it. The only problem I had was that my second mag pouch was an old Safariland double I had laying around, and on the two (out of six) stages that required a third reload, that clingy old mag pouch didn't want to give up the mag. It cost me some time there, dragging the mag out. A second Blade-Tech double mag pouch would fit the bill, though.

[SteveZ]

Went out and shot my first USPSA match today with my carry gear .... I didn't really feel disadvantaged running my carry gear versus the Safariland race rig.

Right! So there ya go...race gear (holster/mag holders) don't give much of an advantage....it's all about shooting skill. I also don't believe how the bullets are aligned in your magazine or guys shooting widebody guns in 40S&W...gives them an unfair advantage over me shooting a single stack in 45ACP. When its all done with....either they beat me or I beat them on shooting skill.

If someone (new) wants to come out and play in L10 with carry gear...they'd be just as competitive as if they were using race gear! If someone wants to "cross over" and shoot L10 with their Limited gun and they beat me...its not because of the equipment...its because they shot better then me.

So why the excitement about limiting L10 to ONLY single stack guns with carry type gear....we've already proven that the gear makes little difference....and others have proven that guns make little difference.

Stop screwing with L10!

[Duane Thomas]

Steve modestly fails to mention he's the guy who beat me out at the match earlier today. Beaten by a B class shooter. Oh, the infamy.... I'm totally humilerated.

[SteveZ]

Steve modestly fails to mention he's the guy who beat me out at the match earlier today. Beaten by a B class shooter. Oh, the infamy.... I'm totally humilerated.

If it makes you feel any better...I'm about .4% from going A Class in L10....or start going backwards in L10!