Semi new shooter(less then 5 matches)

[kgunz11]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

Does this sport not have several rules to insure equality among shooters? Now you are advocating that a salty shooter not be given the same opportunity such as a refresher as a new guy? How do you judge an experienced shooter from an inexperienced one? When I walk up to the line and you don't know me from Adam, what am I? A new guy or an experienced guy? How do you know?

[Singlestack]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

Does this sport not have several rules to insure equality among shooters? Now you are advocating that a salty shooter not be given the same opportunity such as a refresher as a new guy? How do you judge an experienced shooter from an inexperienced one? When I walk up to the line and you don't know me from Adam, what am I? A new guy or an experienced guy? How do you know?

If your knees are knocking and your hands are shaking, your new.

Thats partly why I don't ask Bobby, what if I forget to ask someone? The other part is there is nothing in the rules to support asking a shooter if they understand the course of fire. In fact, there are rules that support the shooter knowing what to do when they step up to the line.

Besides... its funny as hell when a salty shooter blows it.

[kgunz11]

Besides... its funny as hell when a salty shooter blows it.

Now on that I agree with you 1000000000%! :roflol:

[ima45dv8]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

Does this sport not have several rules to insure equality among shooters? Now you are advocating that a salty shooter not be given the same opportunity such as a refresher as a new guy? How do you judge an experienced shooter from an inexperienced one? When I walk up to the line and you don't know me from Adam, what am I? A new guy or an experienced guy? How do you know?

I thnk you're not going to like this answer, because you took Nik to task on a similar reply recently -- As your experience grows, so will you, and you'll know.

You'll be able to spot someone who's new and shaky and not think about it. You'll just know. You'll also be able to spot someone who's competent (within our definition) and not think about it. You'll just know. Don't ask me how. It just happens.

No offense meant to folks just starting their turn at RO duties, but there a few things left to the good judgment and discretion of the RO. Those judgements are learned through experience of which you'll have plenty. The system, while not perfect, is pretty damn good. As you grow in the sport you learn that not every little thing is spelled out in the rulebook. You'll know better, but not perfectly, which shooters might benefit from a little time-out before challenging the CoF.

I wish I could give you a more elegant and definitive answer than that, and there may well be, but I don't know what it is.

[boz1911]

I have no issue when a new shooter (and yes I know he's new) comes to the line and we have some conversation including whether or not he/she understands the COF, or has any questions. I've had many a new shooter ask additional questions at the line regarding the task ahead of them. It also seems to calm their nerves a little. I will generally not waste much time after the MR command getting them started either, that's just time they have to get more nervous.

Regarding this thread (prior to the drift) I also remind new shooters during their first safety briefing that a DQ does sting and is designed to do so. That way, if it happens they are already prepared for it, and hopefully will not get mad and come out and play again.

[Lee King]

I borrowed a COF from the GA State Championship (because I blew it the first time and wanted another crack at it). The COF had 10 targets, 2 strings. The WSB called for you to shoot the 1st string ANY 5 freestyle followed by any OTHER 5 strong hand. 2nd string was any 5 free any OTHER 5 weak.

Every single shooter came to the line with questions. As said previously, you have to use a little judgment.

As an aside: Rehashing COF's for a "do over" doesn't go any better the 2nd time...

[Jadeslade]

This has drifted from asking everybody to only asking new shooters. I am defiantly in the camp of asking new shooters but experienced shooters, no way.

Does this sport not have several rules to insure equality among shooters? Now you are advocating that a salty shooter not be given the same opportunity such as a refresher as a new guy? How do you judge an experienced shooter from an inexperienced one? When I walk up to the line and you don't know me from Adam, what am I? A new guy or an experienced guy? How do you know?

I thnk you're not going to like this answer, because you took Nik to task on a similar reply recently -- As your experience grows, so will you, and you'll know.

You'll be able to spot someone who's new and shaky and not think about it. You'll just know. You'll also be able to spot someone who's competent (within our definition) and not think about it. You'll just know. Don't ask me how. It just happens.

No offense meant to folks just starting their turn at RO duties, but there a few things left to the good judgment and discretion of the RO. Those judgements are learned through experience of which you'll have plenty. The system, while not perfect, is pretty damn good. As you grow in the sport you learn that not every little thing is spelled out in the rulebook. You'll know better, but not perfectly, which shooters might benefit from a little time-out before challenging the CoF.

I wish I could give you a more elegant and definitive answer than that, and there may well be, but I don't know what it is.

I have read all these posts and agree with ima45dv8. The RO's have a lot of responsibility and if they want to ask me if I understand the course of fire, that's ok with me. I have shot under a lot of the people on this post who advocate asking questions and checking the shooter and I have never felt unsafe. I have felt unsafe with new RO's (and you can tell) who are rigid ramrods and know the rules, they think. They hover, they bump into me, they get in my peripheral vision, they are sarcastic (none of the people so far on this post).I think Jack Suber's methodology is much safer and productive for the sport in the long run. You can have twenty years experience, or one years experience twenty times. Big difference. Judgment is a hard thing to learn.

[Alan Meek]

A younger shooter I recently RO'd did something I want opinions on. This stage called for you to have your pistol loaded on a X on a table, along with your magazines. The shooter was shooting a Beretta 92. When he set the pistol down, he immediately sat down in the chair which was,the start position. Before i even had the chance to say anything he was seated. He left the safety off, on a cocked loaded pistol. I remember a question on here about DQ'ing a guy for placing a loaded pistol in his holster with the safety off. Just curious what most of you RO's would have done. Just a FYI. About 3 weeks ago, I DQ'ed a young shooter for pulling his pistol out while I was checking the stage for people and target readyness. I dont think i had a choice, i was about 15' away from him, and he just started making ready, without me. The point here is ,I have not seen the shooter since, and I hate to, but I kind of feel bad, for doing that to a new shooter, even though I was right. Comments??

Bringing it back on topic,

The first incidence:

DQ per the following rules

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section

8.1

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

You mentioned the DQ for holstering a loaded handgun not on safe and that is a different rule that would not apply here. As the competitor was placing the handgun in the strat position and not in their holster

The second incidence:

DQ per the following rule:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer

Yes you did the right thing on the second incidence, I have had to DQ a shooter for the same thing. Mine turned out better as the shooter stated see you next week and then even signed up to squad with me at a sectional match.

While I do not know the particulars of how the DQ was handled by all parties and I am not making assumptions. I try to handle all DQ's with professionalism and respect. Using it as an educational experience and try to learn from them myself. Is there anything I could have done as an RO that could have been of more assistance to the competitor.

[ima45dv8]

I try to handle all DQ's with professionalism and respect. Using it as an educational experience and try to learn from them myself. Is there anything I could have done as an RO that could have been of more assistance to the competitor.

Very cool, Alan.

I was told a long time ago to learn something from every match I attend. It might be an issue with how I made a mag change, or how I entered or left a shooting position, or how I leaned around a barricade.

After a while I found out that some of the best lessons I learned were when I wasn't shooting but rather when I had a timer in my hands.

[BayouSlide]

The second incidence:

DQ per the following rule:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer

Yes you did the right thing on the second incidence, I have had to DQ a shooter for the same thing. Mine turned out better as the shooter stated see you next week and then even signed up to squad with me at a sectional match.

While I do not know the particulars of how the DQ was handled by all parties and I am not making assumptions. I try to handle all DQ's with professionalism and respect. Using it as an educational experience and try to learn from them myself. Is there anything I could have done as an RO that could have been of more assistance to the competitor.

Mine was the second incidence. I made certain immediately after it occurred to explain to the shooter what went wrong and why it was important. This is always the point where a couple of comments from myself (about my own DQ at my first match) and others can make a difference in how the shooter ends up feeling about what happened. Spoke with him after the match as well and made sure to leave him with a handshake and a "look forward to seeing you next time".

I remember what it was like: my DQ at the second to last stage of my first match. I was feeling pretty ashamed for my mistake: but what I will always remember is how the R.O., a well-respected veteran, took me aside and explained what happened and, then, made sure to leave me with the feeling that I was welcome back next month.

As Alan said, the competitor learned a lesson, and I did too. It's always the shooter's DQ, but with experience, if we can see it coming, we may be able to head it off at the pass. And the new guy or gal presents a different set of issues from the seasoned competitor—a lack of awareness of some of the aspects of the sport that the veteran has experienced hundreds or thousands of times.

Helps to put ourselves back in their shoes for a moment, before we ask them to step into the box and Make Ready.

Curtis

Edited: because I HATE typos!

Edited June 17, 2009 by BayouSlide

[Franklin D Wolverton]

The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

USPSA Commands in the (deep) south...

1. Make Ready - Load that F*****

2. Are you ready? - Y'all ready?

3. Standby - Hold up

4. Beep - Git-R-Done

5. If you are finished, unload and show clear - Y'all done? Empty that F***** and lemme see

6. If finished, hammer down, holster - Y'all done? Pull the trigger and Put-R-Away

7. Stop - You dumb son of a b****, you've been shooting since you were old enough to hold a gun, and you go off and do something stupid like that? Empty that F***** and get the hell of my range...

Sorry... couldn't resist... most of my family is from the south, and I spend plenty of time there...

Frank

[Fireant]

The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

USPSA Commands in the (deep) south...

1. Make Ready - Load that F*****

2. Are you ready? - Y'all ready?

3. Standby - Hold up

4. Beep - Git-R-Done

5. If you are finished, unload and show clear - Y'all done? Empty that F***** and lemme see

6. If finished, hammer down, holster - Y'all done? Pull the trigger and Put-R-Away

7. Stop - You dumb son of a b****, you've been shooting since you were old enough to hold a gun, and you go off and do something stupid like that? Empty that F***** and get the hell of my range...

Sorry... couldn't resist... most of my family is from the south, and I spend plenty of time there...

Frank

Hey, have you been shooting one of our local matches? I pretty much have my RO's trained to use those commands only with the southerners(no, Florida is not considered southern ) and to use standard range commands for foreigners.

[ima45dv8]

7. Stop - You dumb son of a b****, you've been shooting since you were old enough to hold a gun, and you go off and do something stupid like that? Empty that F***** and get the hell of my range...

Guilty (holds hand up meekly)

......and to use standard range commands for foreigners.

That would be anyone North of Macon, right?

[Jack Suber]

The common complaint I heard was that people speak English differently in different parts of the U.S. (especially the South) and it was hard for them to understand what we were saying.

USPSA Commands in the (deep) south...

1. Make Ready - Load that F*****

2. Are you ready? - Y'all ready?

3. Standby - Hold up

4. Beep - Git-R-Done

5. If you are finished, unload and show clear - Y'all done? Empty that F***** and lemme see

6. If finished, hammer down, holster - Y'all done? Pull the trigger and Put-R-Away

7. Stop - You dumb son of a b****, you've been shooting since you were old enough to hold a gun, and you go off and do something stupid like that? Empty that F***** and get the hell of my range...

Sorry... couldn't resist... most of my family is from the south, and I spend plenty of time there...

Frank

Yup! That sounds about right. Glad someone translated our commands for you northern boys. I figured y'all might need it...

[Fireant]

That would be anyone North of Macon, right?

Don't you know it. I never go that far north in the winter you know( or ever if it can be avoided ). It gets too cold and some of those places forget to put sugar in the tea. How can you have tea without sugar? It's just not right I tell ya!

[Lee King]

SNIP

I always try to keep this part of the Range Office creed in mind:

It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior.

Maybe my interpretation is loose, but if he asks, I will certainly assist. And if I ask and he ignores me, then I'll shut up and give "Make Ready".

Edited June 18, 2009 by ima45dv8
Cleaned up some emotions that spilled on the floor

[Jack Suber]

I always try to keep this part of the Range Office creed in mind:

It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior.

Maybe my interpretation is loose, but if he asks, I will certainly assist. And if I ask and he ignores me, then I'll shut up and give "Make Ready".

You got it Lee.

[Jack Suber]

How about this twist - at a recent major match, I had a new RO running me. This young fella was wrapped really tight. I greeted him at the start position and he did not even reply, just said, "Make Ready." I remember thinking, "I hope this guy stays out of my way." As I proceded down range he started yelling "Muzzle!! Muzzle!! I was no where near the 180. I moved to the next postion and he yelled, "Muzzle, Muzzle". As I left that position, he yelled it again and I yelled back "Shut up!" After I unloaded I asked him why he was yelling and interfering with me? He said, "well, I thought you were going to go close to the 180." I said, "I was nowhere near it, therefore, you need to be quiet and not interfere with me." He said, "Well I am supposed to warn people if I "think" there getting close." I told him that I agreed, but he needs to evaluate what close is. He was yelling when I was at 150 degrees. I did see a newer shooter stop when he did that to them. It cost the new shooter about 10 seconds. The RO just looked at him and the new shooter did not know what to do. BTW, the newer shooter was about 165 degrees.

[boz1911]

SNIP

I always try to keep this part of the Range Office creed in mind:

It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior.

Maybe my interpretation is loose, but if he asks, I will certainly assist. And if I ask and he ignores me, then I'll shut up and give "Make Ready".

Even if it's a shooter I don't particularly care for, I will always be there to assist, keep things safe, and certainlly be fair. By the way I loved that stage, it was one of my best!!

Edited June 18, 2009 by ima45dv8
Still scrubbing up...

[Lee King]

I greeted him at the start position and he did not even reply, just said, "Make Ready."

At a recent major match I stepped into the box and waited.. and waited.. hand on my gun.. waiting. finally I did a slow head turn behind me. The RO stood there and looked at me like "Well???" I said "Make Ready?" He never said yes.. no.. just looked at me like "you idiot!" and motioned to the gun...

[Spray_N_Prey]

How about this twist - at a recent major match, I had a new RO running me. This young fella was wrapped really tight. I greeted him at the start position and he did not even reply, just said, "Make Ready." I remember thinking, "I hope this guy stays out of my way." As I proceded down range he started yelling "Muzzle!! Muzzle!! I was no where near the 180. I moved to the next postion and he yelled, "Muzzle, Muzzle". As I left that position, he yelled it again and I yelled back "Shut up!" After I unloaded I asked him why he was yelling and interfering with me? He said, "well, I thought you were going to go close to the 180." I said, "I was nowhere near it, therefore, you need to be quiet and not interfere with me." He said, "Well I am supposed to warn people if I "think" there getting close." I told him that I agreed, but he needs to evaluate what close is. He was yelling when I was at 150 degrees. I did see a newer shooter stop when he did that to them. It cost the new shooter about 10 seconds. The RO just looked at him and the new shooter did not know what to do. BTW, the newer shooter was about 165 degrees.

I might be wrong here, but usually by the time a RO yells 180, you've either already broke it and he's being nice and giving you a warning or was on the 180. Most RO's (usually local non-certified) don't realize that you must break the 180 to be DQ'd not ride the 180. I have a friend that does this weird move to when he has to retreit uprange because of a COF, he will turn the gun on the 180 and actually face uprange running in that direction with the gun IN FRONT OF HIM on the 180. it's the wildest thing i've ever seen, but it doesn't break the 180, it's just exactly a 180.

[sperman]

I heard there was a language problem at Area 6 this year. The shooter walked into the box and the RO said "Don't make ready. There is someone down range." I don't think english was this shooters first language, so he heard the "Make ready" part and pulled his gun. The MD was called and no DQ was issued because it was determined the proper range commands weren't followed.

(A friend of mine was on this squad, but I did not witness it personally.)

[Singlestack]

And another thing.

I really hate it when someone says "If the shooter understands the course of fire, he may load and make ready!"!

So there.

[Lee King]

I heard there was a language problem at Area 6 this year. The shooter walked into the box and the RO said "Don't make ready. There is someone down range." I don't think english was this shooters first language, so he heard the "Make ready" part and pulled his gun. The MD was called and no DQ was issued because it was determined the proper range commands weren't followed.

(A friend of mine was on this squad, but I did not witness it personally.)

I may get corrected on this, but when I'm an RO I walk towards the next shooter and stand in generally in front of him until I know all pasters, scorekeepers etc. are off of the COF. IF he's still doing his walk through I stay clear until he approaches the start position. But if he's standing there waiting on everyone to clear, I try to be in his line of sight so he won't misinterpret and draw. Once I'm sure I'M ready to give "Make Ready" then I step behind him and say "Make Ready".

[kgunz11]

And another thing.

I really hate it when someone says "If the shooter understands the course of fire, he may load and make ready!"!

So there.

I simply say "Do you understand the CoF". If the shooter answers "yes" I then say "You may make ready". I only ask when there is some degree of mandatory restrictions on the CoF like these targets must be engaged through this port or mandatory reloads, strong hand/support hand stuff. Like I said earlier, IMO, it's offering a courtesy, not meant to offend anyone.