M&P Limited Gun vs. S_I (etc)

[JeffWard]

Just running a little game in my head today...

Note: I shoot an M&P PRO in Production:

M&P40FS NEW (Bud's) $500

SSS Limited Brass Magwell $80

Dawson Fiber Optic front $40

3 spare mags $90

Trigger Work/Chamber Polish $130

Taylor Freelance Base Pads (4) $120

Tungston Guiderod $45

ISMI Spring $9

Belt/Holster/Pouches (already owned) $0

Total Price, NEW M&P Limited Gun PACKAGE $1014

Decent USED S_I Limited Gun/Mags ONLY $1500-2000

For a guy on a budget, familiar with the M&P Platform (Production and Carry guns)... Is there a $500-1000 difference in performance? Durability? Reliability?

Just wondering from those who know...

JeffWard

[kranzjdw]

the only problem I see is a service model 40 for major if you could get a barrel for the pro it might be a good little gun for lim. I have been thinking of the same thing myself

jeremy

[RobMoore]

I'm waiting to see an M&P Pro in .40 before I play in limited. Till then its Production and Single Stack for me.

[sperman]

I think the S_I rig would probably be closer to $2500 by the time you get tuned mags and the gun running reliably.

If I had to guess, over the life of the rig the plastic gun will probably require less work by a smith to stay reliable.

[mike cyrwus]

My guess is that we will be seeing a Pro Shooter doing this very thing.

[Merlin Orr]

Come on Pro.45. I want one yesterday.

[JeffWard]

My guess is that we will be seeing a Pro Shooter doing this very thing.

Dave Sevigny is cleaning up now in Limited with a G35... in addition to his Production titles.

Springfield has two prototypes in the latest gun-rags, an Open 9Major, and a Limited 40, built on the XDM platform...

Maybe Julie has some insights into development of a S&W Limited Package gun... Considering the success of the M&Ps in Production, I think it would be a great idea for S&W to make a run at Limited/Open.

Aside from the weight "advantage" of the S_I platform, I think the M&P would be more reliable. Less customizable, but I think the radical customization lends to the finickiness. I shot a 6-stage match today. The Limited guns were puking left and right, but not a single Glock or M&P had issues. Including a few shooting Limited Minor. I shot my M&P PRO in Limited Minor the other night at a fun shoot. I stuffed 23 rounds in an Arrendondo extension, and stepped to the line with 24 rounds... The gun ran great.

I have a commission check coming in the next month... 20" wheels for the Mustang, or a Limited M&P??? hmmmm...

Jeff

[kwrangln]

I stuffed 23 rounds in an Arrendondo extension, and stepped to the line with 24 rounds... The gun ran great.

Jeff

Are you still running the stock baseplate in the extensions instead of the L shaped one? I know we talked about it in a thread a while back, just wondering if you've had any problems running the flat plate in there. The 23 rounds keyed me in, I can only manage 22 with the L plate.

[JeffWard]

I stuffed 23 rounds in an Arrendondo extension, and stepped to the line with 24 rounds... The gun ran great.

Jeff

Are you still running the stock baseplate in the extensions instead of the L shaped one? I know we talked about it in a thread a while back, just wondering if you've had any problems running the flat plate in there. The 23 rounds keyed me in, I can only manage 22 with the L plate.

I ran no L-brace in the mag I loaded at the line... 23. My reload mag had the brace, 22. No issues through 5 stages. Of course, the only stage I had to reload on, had a mandatory reload! We had a 24-round stage that night, and I ran it all with a smile on my face. The RO asked my how the hell I ran it without a reload... Limited Minor...

LOL

[Y. Koester]

Sounds like you are gung ho on the pro. You are comparing apples to oranges here. I say if you have the money go with the s_i but if not you can still rock a m&p. You are asking if you can make a mustang fast? Sure you can, but it is still a mustang. Get my drift??

[HSMITH]

The M&P is a nice gun for sure, but I don't think I would run one in Limited or L10. First thing is I don't think the accuracy is on par with a well built S_I, second thing is they don't make a 6" M&P so you would have to give up sight radius to a 6" gun, third thing is I haven't seen one yet with a light trigger (2-4#) that has as positive a reset as my S_I guns have. Don't get me wrong, I am going to get an M&P for Production because I think it is the best thing going as soon as I figure out what to sell to finance the purchase, but I wouldn't even consider replacing my Limited gun with one. Indian/arrow or gear queer or whatever, but I am going to use the best tool the rules allow me to use.

[JeffWard]

Sounds like you are gung ho on the pro. You are comparing apples to oranges here. I say if you have the money go with the s_i but if not you can still rock a m&p. You are asking if you can make a mustang fast? Sure you can, but it is still a mustang. Get my drift??

I'm not gung ho on the PRO. It's a good tool. It shoots well, it's cheap to feed, and after a chamber polishing, it's as/more reliable than any gun I've owned. That said, it's ugly, boring, "plastic".

I get you're drift... but I'm asking...

If I buy a $60K Corvette and add $40K in toys, and you're driving a $200K factory Lambo, and my Corvette can run nicely with your Lambo without needing an expensive Italian Mechanic every 500 miles... I can get my Vette fixed at the dealer, or any mechanic in town... Better yet, the Vette doesn't quit! Why drive a Lambo, except to say you own one?

I know I'm comparing "apples to oranges". What I'm asking, is why buy the orange?

What TECHNICALLY makes the S_I superior? Is it faster back on target? Does it shoot tighter groups? Does it carry more rounds in a 140mm mag? Will it last twice as long with similar maintenance? Yes, they are weapons of artistic beauty, tradition, craftsmanship, etc... But are they BETTER?

Honestly wondering?

JW

[Y. Koester]

Come shoot my 6 inch and i think that you will get it. Less recoil, way better trigger and 22 rounds of 40 in a 140 mm mag.

oh yeah it shoots insane groups. I guess they have problems but don't they all, mine has been good to me. MOST problems have been ammo related which will take down any gun. I used to shoot an xd and i just couldn't get it to track even close to the mc 6 inch that i have. All that i am saying is shoot what you like and what feels good to you. I have tried them both, plastic and s_i and s_i is what i like the most. Just my 02.

[HSMITH]

Durability is a non-issue, well to me it isn't anyway. You pay $1000 for a plastic gun package and it last 30K rounds. OK, what did it cost you to shoot 30K rounds? Gas to go to the range, range fees/match entry, targets, bullets, powder, brass, primers, and on and on. If you REALLY look at what it costs to shoot 75K rounds the cost of a $4000 Limited gun and a couple mags is chump change. A well built S_I will go 75K on one barrel if you treat it right, and should still be in good condition when the second barrel is toast. Mine has 50K on it, hasn't been treated well and will still shoot about 3" at 50 yards.

To me the big issues are trigger reset, sight radius and accuracy, in that order now that I think about it a little more.

[G-ManBart]

What TECHNICALLY makes the S_I superior? Is it faster back on target? Does it shoot tighter groups? Does it carry more rounds in a 140mm mag? Will it last twice as long with similar maintenance? Yes, they are weapons of artistic beauty, tradition, craftsmanship, etc... But are they BETTER?

Honestly wondering?

JW

My Pro shoots groups roughly as good as my STI Limited gun, but that may be the exception to the rule. I've got several 21 round mags for the STI and 22 is doable if you get the right parts and have the right person tune them. I'm not sure if anybody can get 20-22 in an M&P .40 mag with extensions but I'm sure someone is trying! I like the trigger on my Pro and with a little work I'm sure it'll be better, but I doubt it'll ever be quite as good as what you can get with a 1911/2011 platform as far as a short, positive reset and minimal overtravel. R,

[trevoro]

You can get a Corvette to run just as fast as a Lambo, but it will never, ever feel the same.

If you enjoy beating expensive rigs with something less expensive, then I think that is the only reason to go for the M&P.

I didn't buy my SVI to tell other people I own one. I bought it because of how it makes me feel every time I handle it...I think it might be love. While I can respect the plastic guns, I will never really love one because there isn't really anything special about them.

I don't really care that one can shoot better groups or that one has a better trigger. I've never seen the difference make a difference in a match.

[RobMoore]

You can get a Corvette to run just as fast as a Lambo, but it will never, ever feel the same.

It will do that off the showroom floor, but I get the point of the reference.

[trevoro]

^^ The ZR1 isn't really a Corvette, is it?

[Zerwas]

IMHO, I think a 40 LONG SLIDE (Julie, any insite??---I know seems like us shooters never stop whining as this is typed only days after the 9L was finally approved) would be a viable option for limited.

I say this with having owned a beautiful and effective SVI site tracker, and more currently a wonderful 6" pistol that is capable of shooting a flies wings off at 100 paces....of course I haven't used it to the extent I would like too yet as I am still flinging lead with an open pistol. I have used the limited gun built by Howard and he did a FANTASTIC job in building it. I have had ZERO issues with it and it shoots better than any limited pistol I have had the privilage of shooting.

I would be willing to bet S&W will some day come out with a 40 long slide geared at the limited division and I'd be willing to bet they will have someone shoot that thing to the point of doing what Dave did back in 2007 at the limited nationals when he took out all of us out who shot with a 2011 pistol. I think the M&P with the right trigger job and right components, could compete with the 2011. I say this because of the way the pistol is built. It has a low bore axis which aids in recoil management. It has the interchangeable back straps to fit individual hands, one can have the trigger worked on and make it as close to a 1911 trigger as I have felt, you can obtain good quality sites for the pistol and with the right components you can get a decent amount of rounds in the magazine for when the buzzer goes off. As far as longevity/reliability, we really don't know yet as this platform is still relatively new and time will tell just how long this pistol will last.

All S&W has to do is make it in a long slide version, in 40 caliber......

[Flexmoney]

Pick one and practice.

[Flexmoney]

Do expect to see those mags be checked in a mag gauge. nevermind...on a second read, I see you 23+1 was with minor...assuming 9mm?

And, if you want to go cheaper for now...

- You don't need a magwell. Perhaps a help on classifiers. But, you are only looking at 1 reload on big field courses.

- Along the same line...you only need 2 base pads

- Tungsten rod? Give or take.

So, you can likely knock that price down a few hundred...if need be. Then, you could fill in the wants as time/$ allow.

You can make up the difference in weight through technique.

[el pres]

Have'nt we seen this thread a few times before ??

The analogy between the Corvett and the Lambo is a distraction..

A more proper analogy could be that the S_I is the Corvett while the M&P is a Chevy truck, Minivan, or even an Accord.

One is purpose built, the other is a "practical" everyday tool that "can" be raced with some modifications !!

You can not compare an S_I to a Lambo , as they are not only US made but made in "TEXAS", parts are everywhere, and the most important thing is "They Run" !!!

Edited June 8, 2009 by P.Pres

[blkbrd]

Jeff;

Are you sure you want to go limited? I discovered for me limited was like Nascar while Open is like Formula 1.

Send me a PM with your # and we can set up a day at CFRPC, and you can run my SV limited gun and my Bedell Open gun side by side.

I have relegated my Limited shooting to 3-gun.

Yes Open is stupid expensive to get started in, but my shooting costs are actually lower now as 125gr. bullets are cheaper than 147's or 180's.

[sperman]

IMHO, I think a 40 LONG SLIDE (Julie, any insite??---I know seems like us shooters never stop whining as this is typed only days after the 9L was finally approved) would be a viable option for limited.

I say this with having owned a beautiful and effective SVI site tracker, and more currently a wonderful 6" pistol that is capable of shooting a flies wings off at 100 paces....of course I haven't used it to the extent I would like too yet as I am still flinging lead with an open pistol. I have used the limited gun built by Howard and he did a FANTASTIC job in building it. I have had ZERO issues with it and it shoots better than any limited pistol I have had the privilage of shooting.

I would be willing to bet S&W will some day come out with a 40 long slide geared at the limited division and I'd be willing to bet they will have someone shoot that thing to the point of doing what Dave did back in 2007 at the limited nationals when he took out all of us out who shot with a 2011 pistol. I think the M&P with the right trigger job and right components, could compete with the 2011. I say this because of the way the pistol is built. It has a low bore axis which aids in recoil management. It has the interchangeable back straps to fit individual hands, one can have the trigger worked on and make it as close to a 1911 trigger as I have felt, you can obtain good quality sites for the pistol and with the right components you can get a decent amount of rounds in the magazine for when the buzzer goes off. As far as longevity/reliability, we really don't know yet as this platform is still relatively new and time will tell just how long this pistol will last.

All S&W has to do is make it in a long slide version, in 40 caliber......

Julie, or anyone else from M&P that may be listening. When you guys do make a .40 in a 5" gun, please only make 1.

I love my 9L and am glad it finally made the production list. I will be one of the first to buy a 40L/Pro if and when they become available.

[speedy169]

Just running a little game in my head today...

Note: I shoot an M&P PRO in Production:

M&P40FS NEW (Bud's) $500

SSS Limited Brass Magwell $80

Dawson Fiber Optic front $40

3 spare mags $90

Trigger Work/Chamber Polish $130

Taylor Freelance Base Pads (4) $120

Tungston Guiderod $45

ISMI Spring $9

Belt/Holster/Pouches (already owned) $0

Total Price, NEW M&P Limited Gun PACKAGE $1014

Decent USED S_I Limited Gun/Mags ONLY $1500-2000

For a guy on a budget, familiar with the M&P Platform (Production and Carry guns)... Is there a $500-1000 difference in performance? Durability? Reliability?

Just wondering from those who know...

JeffWard

The setup you listed is the setup that I am currently running (minus the sights - still thinking about what I want to get).

I picked up the mag well and 6 used mags with the Taylor pads for a good price. And have around $850 in the total package minus holster and stuff.

I get 20 reloadable in the mags but they do not lock the slide back when dry. The gun shoots great groups and I like the feel of it and it runs like a top. It has some trigger work but I am just having fun shooting it at this time, so I don't want to turn loose of it to get a full on trigger job.

The only down fall is it is not a 5" or longer gun. You have to stoke your loads a little more to hit major and the sight radius has to hurt you some.

I know a few guys that shoot the FS9 models in production and are A class shooters. It is all about practice and what feels comfortable to you (this is my opinion). You can guarantee that I will have a long slide version in 40 as soon as they ever make one.