boo radley Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I sometimes see (surprisingly frequently) a no-shoot target that's been hit, but not noticed by the RO/Scorekeeper and (possibly) the shooter. Here's my question: Shooter finishes the COF. The RO/Scorekeeper score the targets and the shooter & scorekeeper total the scores, record the time and sign the sheet. A few minutes later another competitor on the squad says, "Hey! The guy hit this no shoot", and points to a hole in a no-shoot. Per the rule 9.7.4 does the shooter have a right to protest changing the score-sheet? Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I thought once it is signed its over... no changes. if no one noticed how do you know it wasn't another shooter that hit it?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Stage 2 of the SC Match this past weekend I hit a NoShoot. It was while shooting through the barrel and I noticed it right away and made it up. It was missed when the scorekeeper went around but I brought it to their attention before signing the sheet. Yeah, it would have bumped me up a position in the final results but I wouldn't have slept well. Another thing I learned from John2A this weekend was to paste the hardcover (walls, props, etc) so that we could tell if the current shooter put one through the wall vs the hole was there from yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I sometimes see (surprisingly frequently) a no-shoot target that's been hit, but not noticed by the RO/Scorekeeper and (possibly) the shooter.Here's my question: Shooter finishes the COF. The RO/Scorekeeper score the targets and the shooter & scorekeeper total the scores, record the time and sign the sheet. A few minutes later another competitor on the squad says, "Hey! The guy hit this no shoot", and points to a hole in a no-shoot. Per the rule 9.7.4 does the shooter have a right to protest changing the score-sheet? Thx I think at this point, no. If I was the shooter, I would immediately appeal, if I thought I didn't hit it. Personally, if I thought that I might have hit it, I wouldn't complain, but you know there are people out there who would, just because they could (you know... range lawyers... ) The argument? How do you know it was me that hit it. If the RO/Scorekeeper missed it once, how do you know it hadn't been missed for the last 2, 3, or 4 shooters or so. It's not mine... it's an old, unpasted hit. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The argument? How do you know it was me that hit it. If the RO/Scorekeeper missed it once, how do you know it hadn't been missed for the last 2, 3, or 4 shooters or so. It's not mine... it's an old, unpasted hit.Frank Absolutely - some RO's get into their groove of how they walk and score, and sometimes (unfortunately) that includes not checking all the no-shoots. I shot with a very astute junior for whom this scenario came up. When someone said "hey you tagged this no shoot" - he immediately replied "already signed the form " No wonder he was so quick to get the paper from me to sign! LOL ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) Guys unfortunately us RO's do miss a no shoot, it is rare but it does happen. Last weekend at a major match on my stage after scoring was complete, as I checked the stage to make sure it was all ready to go props set targets taped, there it was a No Shoot. In this case it was inconsequential the little lady had several Mike's and had dropped her mag prematurely and had a couple of ugly jams. The score sheets were signed, so it was let go. In the case of shooting thru the barrel, since it is impenatrable hard cover a hit should not be scored either good or no shoot. A lot of times you will see the barrels dancing as the shooter shoots lets say 5 or 6 times at a target, you get there and there are two holes, kind of hard to figure out which ones went thru the barrel. I got two no shoots with one shot. It went thru the first no shoot broke the edge of the perf continued thru the stick and took a slight right turn and hit another no shoot breaking its purf. Since I had fired several shots in that array it was not possible for the RO to determine it was in fact one shot that hit both no shoots, but I knew it. Back to your questions. As an RO if the no shoot is pointed out during scoring ok, your not going to make any friends that way but it will get scored. After scoring is complete and remember by this time people have touched and taped targets, I won't score the no shoot but I will make sure it gets patched up. If you missed it scoring did you miss it on more than one shooter and or did a paster fall off or get brushed off by some one walking by the target. I don't think that you could win a protest since the targets had been touched. Edited June 2, 2009 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 In the case of shooting thru the barrel, since it is impenatrable hard cover a hit should not be scored either good or no shoot. A lot of times you will see the barrels dancing as the shooter shoots lets say 5 or 6 times at a target, you get there and there are two holes, kind of hard to figure out which ones went thru the barrel. Had a lengthy discussion about using barrels as hard cover or soft cover with George Jones recently as I work through the CRO course. George made an excellent case for declaring barrels as softcover in the WSB for precisely this reason. I'm beginning to understand why minimizing potential scoring problems should be a fundamental criteria of developing a COF. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Back to your questions. As an RO if the no shoot is pointed out during scoring ok, your not going to make any friends that way but it will get scored. After scoring is complete and remember by this time people have touched and taped targets, I won't score the no shoot but I will make sure it gets patched up. If you missed it scoring did you miss it on more than one shooter and or did a paster fall off or get brushed off by some one walking by the target. I don't think that you could win a protest since the targets had been touched. Hmm...OK, so basically once the score card is signed, it's entirely up to the shooter (and his/her conscience) whether to accept a correction, and the penalty target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hmm...OK, so basically once the score card is signed, it's entirely up to the shooter (and his/her conscience) whether to accept a correction, and the penalty target? Yes, that is the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 So you are out shooting a stage and while you are shooting the stage you see your round go into the no shoot. When they score the stage no one else saw it and the score sheet has been signed! What are you going to do? You shot it. If it was a hit on a brown target that didn't get scored, you would be arguing about not getting all your hits!! There are some shooters that do play it straight, are you one of them? It does happen even at the nats. I had a shooter one year that hit a noshoot and it was missed when the stage was scored. After everything was signed and done with another shooter showed the hit on the noshoot to the shooter. He came back and had us add that to his score sheet. Wouldn't take no for an answer even they told him the sheet had been signed. Didn't matter, he said he hit it he wants it. Now that is a straight up shooter! And all he riding on it was a win at the Nationals. (The guys initials, RL) Duane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2ipsc Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hmm...OK, so basically once the score card is signed, it's entirely up to the shooter (and his/her conscience) whether to accept a correction, and the penalty target? Correct. 9.7.4 does allow for post-signing changes, among other caveats, with the "mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory RO." "Another competitor's" post-mortem observation may be interesting (and one trusts, educational going forward), but is irrelevant - what the CRO called and the RO recorded is definitive. So, there's "The Rule Thing" to do ("hee-hee, got away with THAT one!"/"already signed, can't penalize me now"...even though I know I hit it) and "The Right Thing" to do ("you're right, there was a N/S hit, I agree to/insist on the correction") - it comes down to the individual competitor's ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 And all he riding on it was a win at the Nationals. (The guys initials, RL) Classy move from a classy guy. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Heck...I think Max lost a Nationals 'cause he pointed out a no-shoot. If you earn the penalty, miss what have you, take it. Karma WILL catch up to you. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Absolutely - even at the "pro" level - or maybe especially at the pro level. I wouldn't be able to put a point value on my integrity. I like what Floyd said "The Rule Thing to Do" versus "The Right Thing to Do". ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I've been working major matches for a little while now, plus a bumper crop of local events, and provide the scoring servcies for a few of our large-ish local outdoor matches. My integrity is worth a helluva lot more than the few points I would gain by turning my head while a penalty of mine gets missed. At two different majors I've refused to sign a scoresheet because the CRO didn't want to record a penalty that he missed. I dug my heels in and made them put it on the scoresheet. Doing the right thing means doing it even when no one is looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 hate to drift paint the barrels.. keep a can of spray paint handy if the barrel gets hit.. easy to keep up with.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 As a paster, yelling out "ANY ONE HAVE WHITE PASTERS ?" tends to get the shooter and the RO's attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 IMO, absolute honesty (with yourself at least) is required to get to the top of this game. If you can't be completely honest with what you saw and did, in practice or a match, you can't improve it. "It was probably an A" often means "I won't admit I didn't call it". I don't think it's a coincidence that the consistently top shooters also tend to be very honest and responsible about what they did or didn't shoot. This is another thing it took me a long time to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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