CSEMARTIN Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 If a staff member at a USPSA match shoots my gun (at the chrono) with my reloads, and he/she sets off a double charge, and that staff member gets hurt, am I liable for his/her injuries? How do I know the ammo didn't get mixed up? Would I be entitled to repairs or replacement? Can I request that I do the shooting at the chrono? Has a double charge ever been encountered at the chrono, and if so, what was the outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Would I be entitled to repairs or replacement? For your crap ammo...shot in your crap gun? Case dismissed. How do I know the ammo didn't get mixed up? You put the ammo inside a baggie, along with your sticker saying who it belongs to...and zip that up. The only thing that comes out of the bag may be one bullet of the eight...so that it can be pulled and weighed...and it goes right back into the bag. Can I request that I do the shooting at the chrono? I've run chrono at a couple of Majors. One guys shooting the chrono up is enough. If a shooter came to me and started in with worries that his ammo wasn't safe for me to shoot...I'd likely look into having the ammo pulled from the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 At a recent match, the guys running the chrono station wanted to keep our ammo. Basically, he told us he would fire 1 round, if it made major that was all he was going to shoot, but that we would NOT be getting the remaining ammunition back. I personally had a serious problem with this. I told him I was not leaving unfired ammo behind that I loaded, he could pull it if he wanted to, but I was not leaving the loaded rounds in a bag with MY name on it for someone to possible get hurt with. I also load my wife's ammo for her Open gun, and wasn't about to leave that either. The chrono guy absolutely threw a fit and I had to call the RM to get my ammo back, which I did get, as did the rest of our squad. Is this a common thing at any other matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Bobby I've had that same exact experience happen at a few major matches myself, and I didnt like it one bit. I mostly just wanted my primers, my brass, my bullets, etc. back. But I never thought of the liability of the situation as you proposed. Now I like the situation even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Basically, he told us he would fire 1 round, if it made major that was all he was going to shoot... IIRC (and I know that I'm right) that's not how you run the chrono. Keeping the ammo "on file" during a major match is important in the instance of someone challenging you ammo-ie using hot loads for the chrono and softer rounds for the stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I was at the same match, and when I was told they meant to keep the unfired rounds I asked why. It was explained that in the unlikely event of a gun failure that resulted in a substitute gun being used for the remainder of the match, those extra rounds would be used to chrono the back-up gun. I was also told that I would be welcome to claim any unfired rounds held by the chrono officer at the conclusion of the match. In that light, and with the offer to take my remaining ammo home with me, it didn't seem like such a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 IIRC (and I know that I'm right) that's not how you run the chrono. Keeping the ammo "on file" during a major match is important in the instance of someone challenging you ammo-ie using hot loads for the chrono and softer rounds for the stages. I dont care if you keep my ammo for the duration of the match, but I dont see how it helps. You want to check my ammo .... check my ammo. Here, have a mag-full ..... I've got plenty. I was at the same match, and when I was told they meant to keep the unfired rounds I asked why. It was explained that in the unlikely event of a gun failure that resulted in a substitute gun being used for the remainder of the match, those extra rounds would be used to chrono the back-up gun. I was also told that I would be welcome to claim any unfired rounds held by the chrono officer at the conclusion of the match. And what if the backup gun was of a different configuration (ie: 6" vs. 5") and required different ammo to make major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I was at the same match, and when I was told they meant to keep the unfired rounds I asked why. It was explained that in the unlikely event of a gun failure that resulted in a substitute gun being used for the remainder of the match, those extra rounds would be used to chrono the back-up gun. I was also told that I would be welcome to claim any unfired rounds held by the chrono officer at the conclusion of the match. And what if the backup gun was of a different configuration (ie: 6" vs. 5") and required different ammo to make major? I know what should happen, but I don't know what their plan was for that scenario. I can PM you the MD's name if you want to ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 IIRC (and I know that I'm right) that's not how you run the chrono. Keeping the ammo "on file" during a major match is important in the instance of someone challenging you ammo-ie using hot loads for the chrono and softer rounds for the stages. I dont care if you keep my ammo for the duration of the match, but I dont see how it helps. You want to check my ammo .... check my ammo. Here, have a mag-full ..... I've got plenty. It doesn't help with any reputable competitor --- but it does lay the groundwork for a 10.6 DQ if someone would actually attempt to cheat by providing significantly hotter ammo for the chrono, than what they're shooting on the other stages.... I was at the same match, and when I was told they meant to keep the unfired rounds I asked why. It was explained that in the unlikely event of a gun failure that resulted in a substitute gun being used for the remainder of the match, those extra rounds would be used to chrono the back-up gun. I was also told that I would be welcome to claim any unfired rounds held by the chrono officer at the conclusion of the match. And what if the backup gun was of a different configuration (ie: 6" vs. 5") and required different ammo to make major? Yeah --- that bit of logic doesn't seem too well thought out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The procedure for chronoing a replacement gun does NOT include using the original gun's ammo. That is a left-over from previous rulebooks. It would be silly if the orignal gun was a .40 and the replacement gun was a .45 now wouldn't it? The replacement gun is chronoed with its own ammo supply. If both guns use the same ammo, fine. If they use different lots, fine too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I was at the same match, and when I was told they meant to keep the unfired rounds I asked why. It was explained that in the unlikely event of a gun failure that resulted in a substitute gun being used for the remainder of the match, those extra rounds would be used to chrono the back-up gun. I was also told that I would be welcome to claim any unfired rounds held by the chrono officer at the conclusion of the match.In that light, and with the offer to take my remaining ammo home with me, it didn't seem like such a bad idea. Mark, I was at the chrono a good while before you. It is because of my squad that you were told you could have it back after the match was over. The chrono guy told us we were not getting it back EVER, and that is what I had a problem with. The MD made the call that everyone's ammo would be in an area they could retrieve it from after the match if they wanted to. IIRC (and I know that I'm right) that's not how you run the chrono. Keeping the ammo "on file" during a major match is important in the instance of someone challenging you ammo-ie using hot loads for the chrono and softer rounds for the stages. PB, remember, they are only firing ONE round of your ammo, if it makes Major, you're good, if not they keep shooting until it does or you get bumped to Minor. Does that really sound like they are trying to determine an actual PF? It doesn't help with any reputable competitor --- but it does lay the groundwork for a 10.6 DQ if someone would actually attempt to cheat by providing significantly hotter ammo for the chrono, than what they're shooting on the other stages.... You mean that really happens? Has anyone ever been caught doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) At Nationals, I believe we return ammo to the competitor when they are done at chrono, and don't hold it. If there is a question, we sample again. Troy ETA: This from the chrono procedure in the appendix: 50. Following testing, should the interim chronograph results be close to the minimum applicable Power Factor floor, it is recommended that any remaining rounds of the competitor’s sample ammunition be secured and retained at the Chrono Station for potential later reference or additional testing. To me, this says only keep ammo that's close, and then it's not required, only recommended. No reason to not return it at the end of the match, however. Edited June 2, 2009 by mactiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 First off, I believe that chrono procedure of "shoot 1 round and if it goes major you're okay" is not correct. That no withstanding, was the chrono guy actually gonna keep everyones extra rounds and shoot it himself later? That would be freaking crazy. If he wasn't gonna shoot other peoples loaded ammo, what the heck was his fit about? That's so weird. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Who knows Mitch, but do the math. If everyone made PF with their 1st round, and with 200 attendees in the match, that would leave 1400 live loaded rounds of various sorts. It makes no sense to me what so ever, the only person that would know what was in the loaded round would be the one that loaded it. It made me even more uncomfortable when we arrived at the chrono station and the chrono guy was shooting rounds through a couple of guns but there was no squad at the chrono. Let me also say that I think overall the match was run exceptionally well, we had a great time and will continue to attend as long as we are invited. The stages were great and the MD is a first rate guy, a true southern gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) If a shooter came to me and started in with worries that his ammo wasn't safe for me to shoot...I'd likely look into having the ammo pulled from the match. Your points are well taken. I've never seen a competitor worried that his/her ammo was unsafe to shoot, but I have seen double charges on the range. Just because it hasn't happened at the chrono yet doesn't mean it won't. In all seriousness, I will never, nor will I ever, work the chrono. I can't believe people do it. I certainly understand not wanting the competitors to shoot their ammo through the chrono. Hell, at the Single Stack Classic, I missed a target at ten yards. It was standing there all by itself--and I missed it!! was the chrono guy actually gonna keep everyones extra rounds and shoot it himself later? That would be freaking crazy. If he wasn't gonna shoot other peoples loaded ammo, what the heck was his fit about? That's so weird.~Mitch Yes. He was going to keep it and shoot it. Or, he was going to sell it. What's so crazy about it? The chrono guy has been shooting other people's reloads all day long. What's the difference if he takes it home and shoots it? Edited June 2, 2009 by CSEMARTIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 At a recent match, the guys running the chrono station wanted to keep our ammo. FL Open, eh??? Is this a common thing at any other matches? Not in my experience... only match I've ever seen it at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 First off, I believe that chrono procedure of "shoot 1 round and if it goes major you're okay" is not correct. FL Open is not a USPSA match. They can chrono however they want... There have also been years where they've shot your ammo through their guns - and only brought you over if there was a problem with your ammo through their gun! As far as the OP's question of liability - I'm not aware of any waivers being signed by ROs at matches that would indemnify you, should you hand them a double charge and they get injured. You're almost certainly liable, if the RO were to sue you... but I'm not a lawyer... I'd advise that you ask one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2ipsc Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 First off, I believe that chrono procedure of "shoot 1 round and if it goes major you're okay" is not correct... For a USPSA match, you are correct, it is not; see C2.28 and .34 - a minimum of three rounds are to be fired. If it's an "outlaw" match, all bets are off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The match I am talking about is a Level III USPSA sanctioned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2ipsc Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Ooof - naughty, naughty... The match I am talking about is a Level III USPSA sanctioned match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperAWE Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Kgunz...My squad did not get their ammo back, nor did they ever mention to come back and get the unfired rounds. We started on chrono day 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) As far as the OP's question of liability - I'm not aware of any waivers being signed by ROs at matches that would indemnify you, should you hand them a double charge and they get injured. You're almost certainly liable, if the RO were to sue you... but I'm not a lawyer... I'd advise that you ask one I'd love to get an official legal opinion on this one. ETA: Let's say the gun blows up, but nobody gets hurt. And, of course, PF was easily made. Can you finish the match with your backup gun? Edited June 2, 2009 by CSEMARTIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 The match I am talking about is a Level III USPSA sanctioned match. Match needs to have a complaint filed with NROI, then... Cause the chrono was run entirely contrary to the rules... (but don't be surprised if you shoot FL Open and see that type of chrono procedure there... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 ETA: Let's say the gun blows up, but nobody gets hurt. And, of course, PF was easily made. Can you finish the match with your backup gun? I don't really see why not (although you'd have to re-chrono w/ the backup)?? Assuming that you and the RO running the chrono also have spare underwear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Folks, let's back away from the talk about what a particular match did or did not do with respect to chrono procedures. We've come too close to naming names already and we don't do that here. This topic raised to discuss liability by the shooter for dangerous loads fired at a chrono station. Thanks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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