9mm k frame

[mikeone]

Has any one here had a K frame rechambered for moons and 9x23 or 9mm?

Just seeing how well it worked out.

Thanks Mike

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Has any one here had a K frame rechambered for moons and 9x23 or 9mm?

Just seeing how well it worked out.

Thanks Mike

Not yet, but picking up my 9MM model 60 tomorrow :-)

[Airedale]

I have a 686 (L frame) at Pinnacle now for the conversion.

There's a guy on the S&W forum who has a Pinnacle conversion and is pleased with the work and accuracy.

Dave

[Allgoodhits]

Has any one here had a K frame rechambered for moons and 9x23 or 9mm?

Just seeing how well it worked out.

Thanks Mike

One would have to down load significantly from normal factory spec loads for this to work. 9mm and .38 super rds are typically loaded at pressures above 25-30K and .38 spl loads are in the low to middle teens, with +P in the 18K range.

The K frame has two weak spots, thus not suitable for high pressure rounds. One spot is where the notch is in the cylinder which locks the cylinder from rotating. Those 6 notches are too near cylinder charge holes (chambers) thus the wall thickness of the cylinder at that spot is very, very thin.

The second spot is at 6 oclock on the barrel where it protrudes through the frame just forward of the cylinder. There is a flat cut there so that the cylinder "shaft" can clear the barrel when the cylinder is closed. Another weak spot for high pressure rounds through a K frame.

MJ

[mikey357]

Has any one here had a K frame rechambered for moons and 9x23 or 9mm?

Just seeing how well it worked out.

Thanks Mike

One would have to down load significantly from normal factory spec loads for this to work. 9mm and .38 super rds are typically loaded at pressures above 25-30K and .38 spl loads are in the low to middle teens, with +P in the 18K range.

The K frame has two weak spots, thus not suitable for high pressure rounds. One spot is where the notch is in the cylinder which locks the cylinder from rotating. Those 6 notches are too near cylinder charge holes (chambers) thus the wall thickness of the cylinder at that spot is very, very thin.

The second spot is at 6 oclock on the barrel where it protrudes through the frame just forward of the cylinder. There is a flat cut there so that the cylinder "shaft" can clear the barrel when the cylinder is closed. Another weak spot for high pressure rounds through a K frame.

MJ

...not sure that I'd agree with MJ's sentiment on the 9x19...I've got a Model 547, Factory-chambered in 9x19, and it handles EVERYTHING I can stuff into the cylinder with aplomb...including some "Plus P Plus" marked BOMBS...now, I'm not SURE that I'd want to fire a K-Frame in 9x23 Winchester!...HTH....mikey357

[Allgoodhits]

Has any one here had a K frame rechambered for moons and 9x23 or 9mm?

Just seeing how well it worked out.

Thanks Mike

One would have to down load significantly from normal factory spec loads for this to work. 9mm and .38 super rds are typically loaded at pressures above 25-30K and .38 spl loads are in the low to middle teens, with +P in the 18K range.

The K frame has two weak spots, thus not suitable for high pressure rounds. One spot is where the notch is in the cylinder which locks the cylinder from rotating. Those 6 notches are too near cylinder charge holes (chambers) thus the wall thickness of the cylinder at that spot is very, very thin.

The second spot is at 6 oclock on the barrel where it protrudes through the frame just forward of the cylinder. There is a flat cut there so that the cylinder "shaft" can clear the barrel when the cylinder is closed. Another weak spot for high pressure rounds through a K frame.

MJ

...not sure that I'd agree with MJ's sentiment on the 9x19...I've got a Model 547, Factory-chambered in 9x19, and it handles EVERYTHING I can stuff into the cylinder with aplomb...including some "Plus P Plus" marked BOMBS...now, I'm not SURE that I'd want to fire a K-Frame in 9x23 Winchester!...HTH....mikey357

I don't think a 547 is a K frame. You'll know pressure was exceeded quickly, when you can not extract the fired rounds, because the brass has bulged into the cylinder at the spot mentioned above where the notch is. Hey but don't take my word for it. Amazing that S&W has been making K frames for 100 years and the 9mm has been around nearly as long, yet S&W never offered it as a package. Also K frames were never offered with some of the metals used today in the ++P offerings today in some of the S&W frames. S&W K frames , such as 13, 19 and 65, 66 were known not to hold up with continuous .357 magnum loads, which are much less pressure than factory 9mm loads.

MJ, who has cracked K frame barrels at 6 oclock as have most Bianchi shooters who tried to shoot 125 gr jacketed bullets in the 1050fps range and who also has a cyinder that has a bulged chamber at the spot mentioned from a slightly hot .38 spl load (guesstimated at 22,000 psi) that was no where near the pressure of facory 9mm ammo. Look at a K frame cylinder and you will see exactly what I am talking about. The cylinder - chamber wall thickness is very thin at the cylinder bolt stop notch on 6 shot K frames. This is why the L frame was developed. Now take someone who wants to shoot 9 Major from a K frame revolver and you may likely have a "hand" grenade.

MJ

Edited May 29, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[mikeone]

I heard the 65 and 66 frames were heat treated differently to cope with the 357.

will a 65 cylinder fit in a model 10 frame ( I understand this could be a recipe for disaster ) just wanna know if it will fit?

Thanks Mike

[jerseyglock]

TK did it to my model 66 with moon clip. No problem so far. Trigger pull is 6.5lb or so not lower.

[Jim Watson]

I don't think a 547 is a K frame.

But it is.

.357 magnum loads, which are much less pressure than factory 9mm loads.

9mm P SAAMI maximum is 33,000 CUP

.357 Magnum SAAMI maximum is 35,000 psi. Maximum published reload data is in the 40,000 CUP range.

That doesn't mean a K frame will be real durable with light fast bullets, but it is nice to get terms right.

9x23 would be a horse of a different color.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Jim Watson

[jasond]

What's pressure on 9X23? I recall it's significantly higher than 9,.357, etc?

[Allgoodhits]

I don't think a 547 is a K frame.

But it is.

.357 magnum loads, which are much less pressure than factory 9mm loads.

9mm P SAAMI maximum is 33,000 CUP

.357 Magnum SAAMI maximum is 35,000 psi. Maximum published reload data is in the 40,000 CUP range.

That doesn't mean a K frame will be real durable with light fast bullets, but it is nice to get terms right.

9x23 would be a horse of a different color.

According to my American National Standard Institute book ANSI/SAMMI Z299.3-1993 -Maximum 9mm load is 35,000 and +p maximum is 38,500. as found on page 15. For .357 Magnum maximum load is 35,000 and for .38 Spl 17,000 and +p is 18,500. My 1993 version doesn't list 9x23 but it shows .38 Super as max pressure at 37,600. These numbers are Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) pages 15-16. This is the Piezoelctric Transducer System data. The CUP data actually lists .357 Mag as 45,000, and 9mm as 33,000 and .38 Super as 33,000 same as 9mm.

However more importantly again is cylinder wall thickness. The SAMMI spec for a .38 spl / .357 magnum chamber is .3809 and for 9mm it is .3913. The additional diameter of the 9mm brass at the critical spot just forward of the rim is about where the cylinder bolt stop notch is located on 6 shot K frame S&W's.

If S&W thought it was OK for the American market (liability), I wonder why they would not have done a production 9mm K frame 6 shot 40-50 years ago? Yes, they did a run for the Israelis around 1980, but that contract was never fulfilled, and the remaining guns were sifted into the US market place. Pretty rare, I'm sure. I think Ruger also had a Speed Six in 9mm about the same time. The Ruger Speed Six/Security Six is a beefier gun than a K S&W.

MJ

Edited May 30, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[Allgoodhits]

I heard the 65 and 66 frames were heat treated differently to cope with the 357.

will a 65 cylinder fit in a model 10 frame ( I understand this could be a recipe for disaster ) just wanna know if it will fit?

Thanks Mike

Yes, but the barrel will have to be removed, then cut at the throat end. The .357 mag cylinder S&W K frame cylinder is a tad longer than the .38 spl cylinder. Otherwise the front of the cylinder would hit the barrel when you attempt to close the cylinder. Well this is true of all the K frame guns I own, which are many but 1960 -1980 vintage.

MJ

[mikeone]

I heard the 65 and 66 frames were heat treated differently to cope with the 357.

will a 65 cylinder fit in a model 10 frame ( I understand this could be a recipe for disaster ) just wanna know if it will fit?

Thanks Mike

Yes, but the barrel will have to be removed, then cut at the throat end. The .357 mag cylinder S&W K frame cylinder is a tad longer than the .38 spl cylinder. Otherwise the front of the cylinder would hit the barrel when you attempt to close the cylinder. Well this is true of all the K frame guns I own, which are many but 1960 -1980 vintage.

MJ

Thank you! Any idea on frame hardness or heat treat between the 38 and 357 guns?

[jasond]

According to my American National Standard Institute book ANSI/SAMMI Z299.3-1993 -Maximum 9mm load is 35,000 and +p maximum is 38,500. as found on page 15. For .357 Magnum maximum load is 35,000 and for .38 Spl 17,000 and +p is 18,500. My 1993 version doesn't list 9x23 but it shows .38 Super as max pressure at 37,600. These numbers are Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) pages 15-16. This is the Piezoelctric Transducer System data. The CUP data actually lists .357 Mag as 45,000, and 9mm as 33,000 and .38 Super as 33,000 same as 9mm.

MJ

The difference between CUP and Piezo explains the grumblings about how .357 used to be hotter than it is now!

I quick search of the internet didn't turn up any SAAMI specs for 9X23.

[warpspeed]

I'd love a 9x19 revolver.

Why doesn't S&W make one ?

[Gary1911A1]

The S&W 547s' were made on the K Frame and were/are good revolvers.

http://www.vintagepistols.com/range_report_S&W_547.html

[Jim Watson]

I'd love a 9x19 revolver.

Why doesn't S&W make one ?

It's all your fault. They made two diffent guns, 547 and 940. You did not buy your share so they discontinued them.

[Daniele]

I owned a 4" barrelled 547, one of the most accurate revolver in my hands.

BUT the unloading system was OK only with factory ammo.

To my knowledge 940 is a J frame and 5 shooter.

My question is: why S&W doesn't make a 9mm, K frame, monclipped, 6 shooter?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Daniele

[steel1212]

I owned a 4" barrelled 547, one of the most accurate revolver in my hands.

BUT the unloading system was OK only with factory ammo.

To my knowledge 940 is a J frame and 5 shooter.

My question is: why S&W doesn't make a 9mm, K frame, monclipped, 6 shooter?

I would say due to the fact that they have more interest in the rest of the revo community in 38/357 than just us sporting community. I mean hell look what they did with the 5" 625, probably the most popular revo gun in our sport.

[JimmyZip]

I thought that there was once a source of 9mm S&W pistols sold to Israel. I think you used to be able to find them. Maybel my memories are fuzzy, but I thought there was even one pictured in an issue of "Small Arms Of The World".

[wlktheduk]

My 10th edition copy of W.H.B. Smith's "Small Arms of the World" (copyright 1973) has what JimmyZip is referring to (I think) Chapter 36, Israel

from page 464: "The Israelis developed a modified copy of the Smith & Wesson Military and Police pistol, which is unusual in that it is chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. The use of this rimless cartridge requires the use of two three-shot clips similiar to that used with the U.S. caliber .45 Colt and Smith & Wesson service revolvers. This revolver, which bears Israeli Security Forces markings, is apparently basically a police weapon."

A photo of this revolver is on page 465, with a three-shot clip shown also.

[coldchar]

Someone recently said they contacted a mfg and 9x23 was in excess of 50,000 something.