M&P Pro FTE A totally different thread from the other guys

[Sarge]

I made a separate thread for my M&P FTE issue. Read on and you will see why.

My gun has been flawless since I bought it in Dec or Jan with maybe one or two FTE's. Today at a match it FTE'd literally every stage. It got damn frustrating! But something simple must be the cause for it to do it all of a sudden. The empty brass was sticking pretty good about halfway out of the chamber. Since I was in the heat of the match I did not take the time to see how tight the empties were. I know they would not fall out no matter how much I shook. I had to drop the mag and lock the action forward then the empty would eject manually. And since I was kind of PO'd I really have not looked at the gun. Could I have broken the extractor? Any way to look and tell what might be wrong in that area? Could it have gotten a chunk of grime under it just like that? I just cleaned it last night before the match. Could I have gotten too much gun scrubber under it?

Ammo was the same as I always shoot 4.0 TG 124 CMJ. cleaned and polished as always.

I really hope it is not broken so I am willing myself to believe a good cleaning will fix it. If I use a magnifying glass on the extractor what exactly am I looking for?

Thanks as always and I know somebody will be able to help.

[Flexmoney]

Moved to the dedicated M&P forum...

- Admin.

[mike cyrwus]

The first thing I was going to say was maybe theres a chunk of crud or brass under the extractor. If you use a small punch, and push outward on the extractor claw like its feedeng a round, will it pivot like it normally does?

The outside of the claw has a nice curve, if theres an obvious rough or jagged part, then its probably broken. Ive never seen a broken one in person. Unless all your ammo are bad reloads, that stick in the chamber, Id say you need to call s&w tuesday morning and get a ship tag sent out to you.

Edited May 25, 2009 by mike cyrwus

[Nate]

Had a friend with a similar issue with an M&P. She polished the chamber and the problem went away. If you do this stay clear of the rifling.

[Ledge]

Had the same issue. Found that I had some crap built up in the chamber, and wasn't doing the best job cleaning around the extractor. Had to use a dental pick to clean all of the accumulated crud out from around the extractor, and take a brush to the chamber.

[Boats]

I vote for dirt, in the extractor channel. Of course it could be a weak spring burr or snag of some sort too. Look at it under magnification. Try compressed air as well as a solvent. I use straight carb cleaner, the one that's OK for Plastic. Personaly I am not big on polishing chambers. They don't have to be real smooth to work good and too much polish is not a good thing. Case needs to grab the chamber on ignition, also polish is going to make it larger, probably not a lot but for sure some.

Boats

[Dan Burwell]

What recoil spring are you using and how many rounds do you have on it?

[Sarge]

What recoil spring are you using and how many rounds do you have on it?

Hey Dan I am glad you chimed in. I thought of your post about keeping M&P's stock for 100% reliability. I had to try new springs though. I started the match with a new 13lb ISMI and new guiderod and had an FTE in the first magazine. I said to myself Dan is probably right so I went back to the stock setup. Still had at least 3 more FTE's. I think I had one stage out of 5 that was a clean run. Any more of your thoughts would be highly regarded. Maybe 2500-3000 rounds on the stock setup.

Thanks much

Edited May 26, 2009 by sandman

[JeffWard]

I'm on round 1500-1800 post chamber polish, running a 13# spring on a non-captured SS rod.

Zero FTEs, post chamber-polish. Never touched the extractor.

JW

[Sarge]

The first thing I was going to say was maybe theres a chunk of crud or brass under the extractor. If you use a small punch, and push outward on the extractor claw like its feedeng a round, will it pivot like it normally does?

The outside of the claw has a nice curve, if theres an obvious rough or jagged part, then its probably broken. Ive never seen a broken one in person. Unless all your ammo are bad reloads, that stick in the chamber, Id say you need to call s&w tuesday morning and get a ship tag sent out to you.

Hi Mike. Yes it pivots like I think it should. I take a toothbrush to mine every time I shoot so it should be clean enough. I guess it could have gotten some crud under it but nothing big really stood out when I flushed with cleaner. All of my ammo has always passed gauge but I must admit I don't drop it in the chamber to verify. I was shooting some very light loads to start the match which I had been chronoing earlier in the week. Could they have been so dirty they fouled the workings up? I shot a few mags of 3.8 and 3.9 TG. Too light maybe? Too much blowby?

[Sarge]

I'm on round 1500-1800 post chamber polish, running a 13# spring on a non-captured SS rod.

Zero FTEs, post chamber-polish. Never touched the extractor.

JW

Hi Jeff. That is the kicker to this whole thing. I may have had one or maybe 2 FTE's in 2 or 3000 total. Then all of a sudden I could not get through a stage without one.

[Sarge]

While I am waiting to see if I get any more pointers on the issue I will share some lessons learned..

When your gun ain't workin' it is hard as heck to shoot good scores. Granted the times were horrible but the confidence was not there. Every time I transitioned I looked at the gun to make sure it was going to go bang when I pulled the trigger. Very very rattling to have your stuff not work right.

I also found that it pays to know what to do out of instinct instead of assessing the situation each and every time.

After two FTE's I can tell with my eyes closed when one happens now. Before the damn thing worked so perfect I just never got to experience many stoppages.

I already carry 5 mags on my belt in production. And my start mag is in my pocket. To those who think this is overkill wait until you drop two mags in 5 seconds trying to get things working on a high round count stage! There is no time to remove mags and put them in your pocket while working on a jammed up gun. Lesson learned carry plenty of mags.

Carry a complete cleaning kit in your big bag you leave in the truck. I might have been able to strip and spray it and relube it. At least I would already know if that was the problem instead of waiting to go shoot it again.

Hope this helps .

[Sarge]

I vote for dirt, in the extractor channel. Of course it could be a weak spring burr or snag of some sort too. Look at it under magnification. Try compressed air as well as a solvent. I use straight carb cleaner, the one that's OK for Plastic. Personaly I am not big on polishing chambers. They don't have to be real smooth to work good and too much polish is not a good thing. Case needs to grab the chamber on ignition, also polish is going to make it larger, probably not a lot but for sure some.

Boats

Hey Boats. Which Carb cleaner do you use? Even the non chlorinated stuff at work says to not get it on plastic

[kwrangln]

Hi Jeff. That is the kicker to this whole thing. I may have had one or maybe 2 FTE's in 2 or 3000 total. Then all of a sudden I could not get through a stage without one.

Any time you have a piece of machinery that works flawlessly and then all of a sudden like starts having problems, the first question should be "what has changed". Different loads? Different brass? Different cleaning methods? Is something broken?

Be it a car, gun, typewriter (do they still have those?), if it works right and then all of a sudden doesn't, then something changed to cause it. Either something input has changed, or something has broken. Stuff like polishing the chamber just doesn't fit the profile, you would have had problems earlier, this is something new. Go over everything with a fine toothed comb, check parts, and take a good look at what you may have changed lately that would affect things. If using strictly reloads, is your powder measure still calibrated? etc. Just figure out what is the new variable.

[Sarge]

Hi Jeff. That is the kicker to this whole thing. I may have had one or maybe 2 FTE's in 2 or 3000 total. Then all of a sudden I could not get through a stage without one.

Any time you have a piece of machinery that works flawlessly and then all of a sudden like starts having problems, the first question should be "what has changed". Different loads? Different brass? Different cleaning methods? Is something broken?

Be it a car, gun, typewriter (do they still have those?), if it works right and then all of a sudden doesn't, then something changed to cause it. Either something input has changed, or something has broken. Stuff like polishing the chamber just doesn't fit the profile, you would have had problems earlier, this is something new. Go over everything with a fine toothed comb, check parts, and take a good look at what you may have changed lately that would affect things. If using strictly reloads, is your powder measure still calibrated? etc. Just figure out what is the new variable.

Pretty much exactly my train of thought already. I am still baffled but not convinced it needs to be repaired or have major work done yet. I will be shooting steel Wednesday night to see if it has corrected itself through a good cleaning. Thanks much

[G-ManBart]

Hi Jeff. That is the kicker to this whole thing. I may have had one or maybe 2 FTE's in 2 or 3000 total. Then all of a sudden I could not get through a stage without one.

Any time you have a piece of machinery that works flawlessly and then all of a sudden like starts having problems, the first question should be "what has changed". Different loads? Different brass? Different cleaning methods? Is something broken?

Be it a car, gun, typewriter (do they still have those?), if it works right and then all of a sudden doesn't, then something changed to cause it. Either something input has changed, or something has broken. Stuff like polishing the chamber just doesn't fit the profile, you would have had problems earlier, this is something new. Go over everything with a fine toothed comb, check parts, and take a good look at what you may have changed lately that would affect things. If using strictly reloads, is your powder measure still calibrated? etc. Just figure out what is the new variable.

Pretty much exactly my train of thought already. I am still baffled but not convinced it needs to be repaired or have major work done yet. I will be shooting steel Wednesday night to see if it has corrected itself through a good cleaning. Thanks much

Mine went hundreds of rounds with the same lot of factory (AA&A) ammo and then all of a sudden...bingo, FTE with nothing changed. If it happened with any consistency it would be a lot easier to fix! R,

[Nemo]

Is this also happening with the 4" M&P's or only the Pro's?

[Dan Burwell]

Is this also happening with the 4" M&P's or only the Pro's?

I have been hearing it with all 9's just seems to be worse with the PROs.

I posted this in the M&P forum my theory's but I can post it again here:

From the best I can tell there are two maybe three problems that when combined together equal a M&P 9 that doesn't extract. 1 extractor hook angle 2. Sticky chamber 3. unlocks too quickly.

I know for the most part I can get them to run by fixing any two of the three things, so long as the stock recoil spring is used. If someone is insistent on using a light spring all I can say is good luck, you may or may not have a 100% gun.

For my open M&P I had to do all three mods to get it to run, although I did them in the order I listed so it may have only been necessary to do #3.

[hanexp]

Dan

How is the early unlocking of the gun controlled or modified. Is there another way other than the recoil spring? My chamber has been polished. Extractor hook angle remains stock. I do use a 13# spring, but would change that for more reliability.

Thanks for any thoughts you have on this topic.

Is this also happening with the 4" M&P's or only the Pro's?

I have been hearing it with all 9's just seems to be worse with the PROs.

I posted this in the M&P forum my theory's but I can post it again here:

From the best I can tell there are two maybe three problems that when combined together equal a M&P 9 that doesn't extract. 1 extractor hook angle 2. Sticky chamber 3. unlocks too quickly.

I know for the most part I can get them to run by fixing any two of the three things, so long as the stock recoil spring is used. If someone is insistent on using a light spring all I can say is good luck, you may or may not have a 100% gun.

For my open M&P I had to do all three mods to get it to run, although I did them in the order I listed so it may have only been necessary to do #3.

[Dan Burwell]

Dan

How is the early unlocking of the gun controlled or modified. Is there another way other than the recoil spring? My chamber has been polished. Extractor hook angle remains stock. I do use a 13# spring, but would change that for more reliability.

Thanks for any thoughts you have on this topic.

First use the factory spring they do work well, if your loads don't eject far enough quite being a pansy and turn up your load.

I don't like gunsmithing to sound like some sort of secret black magic crap, but this is one of those things that if you screw up it could be bad news, so possibly against my better judgement:

You can delay the unlocking by modifying the front locking block, you can move the one barrel impact suface back by about 0.020 to allow the barrel to stay with the slide just that much longer. This allows the chamber pressure to drop a bit more before the extractor tries to rip the case out of the chamber. It is very important that this surface stays square and the barrel makes good even contact. The barrel impacting this surface unevenly could cause accelerated wear and failure.

[hanexp]

First use the factory spring they do work well, if your loads don't eject far enough quite being a pansy and turn up your load.

I don't like gunsmithing to sound like some sort of secret black magic crap, but this is one of those things that if you screw up it could be bad news, so possibly against my better judgement:

You can delay the unlocking by modifying the front locking block, you can move the one barrel impact suface back by about 0.020 to allow the barrel to stay with the slide just that much longer. This allows the chamber pressure to drop a bit more before the extractor tries to rip the case out of the chamber. It is very important that this surface stays square and the barrel makes good even contact. The barrel impacting this surface unevenly could cause accelerated wear and failure.

Dan,

Thanks for your comments. I don't think I'll be trying that myself. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't something easy to do and it sounds like it sure isn't. There have been a lot of comments posted here and in the M&P form on FTEs. So it's good to hear from someone with your depth of knowledge and experience on the M&P platform.

FTEs have been reduced in my M&P by polishing the chamber, cleaning around the extractor anytime it occurs to me to do so, and by sorting brass for any dings on the rims. My FTEs seem to be down to around one per 660 rounds. I like the non captured full length guide rod I'm using, so I think I'll change springs to match the factory recoil spring from the 13# spring I have been using and let the brass fall where it may. Factory RC is 15#, correct? I am using a little more than minimum pf loads (124g over 4.1 Titegroup). I was planning to try a slower powder on the theory that the gun will stay locked slightly longer. Does this make sense?

Thanks again.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Flexmoney

[vluc]

Dan what does polishing the chamber do to prevent the FTE? Is it a way to address possible tight tolerance on the chamber preventing the brass from extraction?

[Sarge]

Well I took out the extractor and it was clean as a whistle underneath. I still had 6 or more FTE's tonight at a steel shoot and during a quick chrono/ practice session. Total 250 rounds.

Here is what I know about tonights range time.

After the 3rd or 4th FTE I checked magazines and found that most but not all came from the same mag. Coincidence? I am no gunsmith but this seems unrelated since the brass is just sitting in the chamber after firing.

The brass that did not extract was very tight in the chamber. I mean I could not get it out without prying with a screwdriver or locking the slide and ejecting manually. Is it normal to be that tight?

But one FTE actually made it out of the chamber and was laying on an empty magazine.

I took the gun apart and chamber checked the last 50 or so rounds all was good. Like I said the ammo and gun have worked nearly perfectly together up until now.

All FTE's were with WIN brass. To be honest about 90% I shot was WIN so this makes sense. No?

In desperation I drenched the gun in breakfree for the last 50. I mean it was drooling so much I had to keep wiping it off. But no FTE's after that.

I took the extractor out again tonight and noticed some pressure points(rub marks) that looked rough so I polished the sides of the extractor to a mirror finish.

As always thanks for any help .

[mike cyrwus]

theres always shoddy factory brass (as well as reloads to throw into the mix).

The first thing I do with fte M&P's (after Im pretty sure its not from being dirty or bad brass) is run a 9mm nowlin chamber reamer through the barrel and see if it was chambered wonky due to worn tooling. I kinda think that the black coating might build up in some of the chambers, too; maybe. After that, I tune the extractor just like a 1911, radiusing and polishing it.

Ive seen tuned extractors that came directly from S&W that one or more of their factory shooters may or may not be running.

That was a good clue that the cures are most likely #1 and #2 of what Dan said. Or at least we're in step with the factory.

One big thing that gives me piece of mind when Im running the M&P, is that Ill chamber check all my ammo. Do it for awhile; take out the barrel. Drop the 100 or so rounds for that days practice, or 2-300 you take to that next match and see if they easily drop in and out of the chamber. It will make a nice "sh-ting" sound, and it will give you a chance to check for high primers. I do it watching tv.

If they chamber check ok, that takes a couple of variables out of the mix. And you might find out that wwb sucks even more than you thought!

Edited May 28, 2009 by mike cyrwus

[vetts1911]

Looks like I am there too. I have a M&P9L that just started this. It is one FTE every 25 to 50. I think that it started about 350 rounds ago. I have about 1500 rounds through this gun total. I was running white box and N320 with a 125 at about 135 power factor. No problems cycling the slide. I called Smith and I am going to have them fix it or see if they can. I called them today and they told me that a shipping label is on the way on them.

Now my first M&P9 was doing this at first unless I ran Remington Green box and then after about a 1000 rounds I just went and tried reloads and other brands and it has worked flawless since.

I will post and let you all know the diagnosis.