Inserting a magazine while gun is holstered?

[joecichlid]

While shooting at a small local club over the years I have seen several shooters, when given the make ready command, un-holster their guns then load the gun putting a round in the chamber and apply safety then remove the magazine and re-holster the gun. At this point they load one more round in the magazine they just removed from the gun then, while the gun is still in the holster, insert the magazine into the gun (personally I am a HUGE fan of the Barney mag with a single bullet for this reason). My question is: Is this a safety issue that could result in a DQ? After careful reading I could find nothing in the rulebook that would suggest a DQ or any other action but this is something I have been wondering about for years. Have you seen this kind of action before? How would/should you handle it?

Joe W.

[mactiger]

The rule book doesn't spell this out as a DQ, therefore it isn't, but it is a practice that should be discouraged by the RO. As RO, you want to be able to watch the competitor's hands and gun while he loads, reloads, unloads, etc. I've heard that a lot of police departments advocate this "administrative" reload--(at least that's what one guy at the Single Stack called it), but IMO it's not a good way to put a magazine in your gun. Too many problems can arise from this practice. Having said that, however, it's not "unsafe" per the rules.

Troy

[mlmiller1]

Troy,

Would you care to explain how to "discourage" shooters from doing this? I haven't found any way to do that since it is not against the rules.

The only possible place I could see where you might be able to try to interject a word of caution is when you explain how easy it would be to drop the gun while doing this.

MLM

[Jim Norman]

From what I have learned, this "Administrative Load" is used by officers doing prisoner transport. Scenario, Van pulls into court building courtyard, Officers disembark, remove mag from gun thus activating the magazine safety, they then remove prisoners from transport and take them into the secure area where they are transferred to court officers. Once the transfer is complete the officer reinserts or "reloads" his weapon. The idea being that if the prisoner manages to grab a weapon it will not discharge.

From a competitive point of view with a firearm with possibly a very light trigger this could be a very exciting experience. One I'd just as soon miss.

Jim

[mactiger]

Sure. I usually stop them and explain that it isn't the safest way to insert a magazine, given that they are usually using a competition holster, and not using a duty gun, either. More possibilities to knock the gun out of the holster or put undue pressure on the trigger, depending on type of holster. I also tell them it's not against the rules to do it, but I strongly recommend that they discontinue it during the match, unless they want more lectures, etc.

Not hard to do, professionally and courteously. I've seen it throw off some less experienced range officers, and many have questions.

Troy

Troy,

Would you care to explain how to "discourage" shooters from doing this? I haven't found any way to do that since it is not against the rules.

The only possible place I could see where you might be able to try to interject a word of caution is when you explain how easy it would be to drop the gun while doing this.

MLM

[HRider]

There used to be a fellow who came to our club regularly that only had use of his right arm. He shot Open division (USPSA). At the "Load and make ready" command, he would remove a magazine from his right hip pocket, insert it into his holstered gun, remove his gun from the holster and hook his slide racker into the front pants pocket and push the gun to chamber a round. He would place his gun on safe and then reholster.

I squadded with him many times and never saw him do anything that I thought was unsafe. I was also inspired by his ingenuity to overcome difficulties (he also had a "platform" built on his gunbelt and had "hooks" welded to the basepads of two magazines. The magazines would slide sideways onto the "platform" and when he made a mag change, he would drop the mag from the gun, set the magwell of the gun on a magazine on the platform and then slide it to his right and continue shooting).

Hurley

[joecichlid]

Troy, very good advice. I have to agree with the comments about the risk of pushing/knocking the gun out of the holster depending on the style. This hasn't been a huge problem at our club, just something that has been on my mind over some time now. Since I couldn't find anything in the rule book or any other posts on the site here I figured it could be an interesting thread for some of the newer shooters and ROs to read.

Joe W.

Edited May 19, 2009 by joecichlid

[Spray_N_Prey]

If we're doing multi strings or something, I will do this to make sure my mag is full. If I was to have an RO lecture me, I think it would rub me the wrong way. If it's not in the rules, from my understanding, you cannot make your own rules up and basically what's the point of lecturing a shooter about it, since there's no violation in doing this.

[Graham Smith]

Maybe it's my lack of experience, but I cannot see anything inherently unsafe about doing an admin reload.

I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way here or sound pedantic, but if your gun is so unsafe in it's holster as to make this technique dangerous, then don't do it or get a safer holster.

[John Dunn]

At a Gunsite class we did admin reloads between strings to limit people handling unholstered guns off the line, it's a good way to top off, provided you have a safe holster. Troy has a ton more experience than I, but if it is not against the rules, I'd appreciate you giving me the lecture after the match, where we can debate the pros and cons. After LAMR all I want to hear is the normal sequence of range commands or STOP.

[Carlos]

I have often seen LEOs here in Area 8 chamber a round, remove the mag, and re-holster to top off. I have seen it enough that it is apparent that this technique is being taught - at least in this Area. Couple of thoughts:

-if they are trained that way at their academy, then how will they take it if a civilian USPSA RO tells them they are being unsafe? What impression will it create? I know how a S.E.R.T. officer/friend reacted at an IDPA after the S.O. informed him that his technique was not "tactically sound" (this officer serves no-knock drug warrants several time a month; he did not appreciate the "advice").

-OTOH, as Troy points out, it is not necessary to complete the C.O.F. and it may involve pointing a loaded gun at a part of one's body (i.e. in the case of an IWB type holster) more than necessary.

Finally, in the case of SA only guns, it is still an automatic DQ to reholster without applying the manual safety. RO need to be on top of both reholsterings.

[Jim Norman]

A couple additional points, I to have seen LEO an d afew others do this type of load. I will not argue that it is inherently unsafe with a DA/DAO gun with the hammer DOWN!, With a 1911 with a who knows who trigger job that was originally 1.2 pounds, but is now in less than perfect condition and a pinned grip safety....

I would say it skirts real close to if not over the "Unsafe Gun Handling" line.

Also, if you are doing this in a Blade-Tech/Uncle Mike's/Milt SParks/Galco full coverage holster that is one thing, doing it with a CR Speed/Ghost/LimCat or other race holster is going to wind up someday with your gun tumbling and a DQ. Why do it?

Make Ready and Unload Show Clear are not speed events, they are performed OFF THE CLOCK.

Safety First.

Same goes for cupping the ejection port to catch a round or the strip and flip at ULSC. I find them to be unsafe in general practice and will strongly urge especially newer shooters that neither is a good or safe thing to do. Just too many things that can go wrong. See a few too many pieces of brass pulled out of fingers and palms from the first and some scary but still arguably safe muzzle control from the latter.

While on this subject, the other item is the lack of muzzle awareness at "Hammer Down" I tell everyone that someday that blaster is going to go BANG, so point it like it was loaded when you droop the hammer, Don't hold the gun nect to your face, don;t casually point it generally down range as it might launch one over the berm ending at the very least your day at the range and possibly everyone else's if the round lands in a bad way.

Jim

[FLL1911]

I see a point for the RO advising the shooter of the associated risks of inserting a magazine in a holstered gun, as long it is done BEFORE the “Make Ready” or AFTER the “Range is Clear”. Since it is not in the rules, only official statements should be given during the COF. Shooter should take is as a comment from a fellow shooter, not as a RO advise. It is not a matter whether or not it makes sense; it just is not in the rules.

[JThompson]

I wouldn't talk to a shooter between strings or after MR command for this action. I think that could really knock them off their game. If I thought it unsafe I would speak up. This is one of those things that is about knowing your equipment.

I'm sure Troy has probably seen one knocked out of the holster and that it the reason he feels strongly about it.

JT

[kgunz11]

Just about any Mil or LE class you take that runs a hot line will advocate the "Administrative Reload". They do this to keep folks from unnecessarily handling the gun while a group of students are on the line. It should only be done ON THE LINE, and all firearms should be cleared before going back to the truck or bench to top off mags. I see no reason to do this in a match environment, even though it is a cold range, when the MR command is given it is a hot line, but I don't think it's appropriate. For the argument of "you do what you train"... well in a fire fight my gun is NOT going to be in the holster until the authorities or the ambulance arrives. Different strokes for different folks. I have watched Travis Tomasie barney a round in his gun, eject the barney mag, put in another mag, and then top off the barney mag with the round depleted from it as he is looking over the stage. I still haven't figured out where he gets that 1 round he puts back in the barney mag!

[joecichlid]

A lot of fantastic input on the topic. Although not agaist the rules I don't see it as the safest way to put a fresh mag in the gun but that is my opinion. Until (more likely if) there is ever an offical rule on the matter I won't say anything to the shooter as an RO, as stated above doing so as a fellow shooter and saying anything off the shooting line is another thing.

Carlos, don't you just love to see someone who plays tactical try and tell someone who is tactical for a living how to do things "the right" way. LOL I will spare the readers my feelings on THAT matter, lets just say I shoot with a lot of cops and a lot of people who shoot other types of sports and every so often I just have to laugh.

Joe W.

[z40acp]

About ten years ago we had a couple of shooters at our gun club attend a S&W handgun course and that is how they were taught.

[mactiger]

OK. So, "lecture" is probably not the right word for what I meant--I wouldn't lecture you about it, although I have stopped shooters from time to time because I was under the impression that an administrative reload is not "acceptable practice" even though it's not against the rules as written. My thought was that if a competitor did it a lot, he'd hear about it a lot from the RO's on each stage.

After thinking about it and reviewing the rule book, I can't find where it's illegal, and most of the other instructors I've talked to don't think it's a problem, either. After all, if your holster won't retain the gun while you stick a mag in it, then there are other rules that cover the dropped gun. So, no harm, no foul for admin. reloads, and I stand corrected.

Troy

[Shootingirons45]

It's not against the rules to do a "admin" reload. However I will say this. Back in the old days, back before we had quality parts and before we had this dearth of knowledge concerning the 1911's workings, I have seen several 1911's go "bang" when the magazine was inserted into the mag well. The culprit? The sear spring was protruding, slightly into the mag well cut. Now, this could have and did happen both in of, and out of the holster. I've not seen it happen in over 10 years but I suppose it could happen given the right circumstances. If the weapon does discharge while in the holster then a DQ could be applied. Personally I try and discourage the Admin reload with 1911's but we're all grown here. Just my 2 cents.

[ausshooter]

It's not against the rules to do a "admin" reload. However I will say this. Back in the old days, back before we had quality parts and before we had this dearth of knowledge concerning the 1911's workings, I have seen several 1911's go "bang" when the magazine was inserted into the mag well. The culprit? The sear spring was protruding, slightly into the mag well cut. Now, this could have and did happen both in of, and out of the holster. I've not seen it happen in over 10 years but I suppose it could happen given the right circumstances. If the weapon does discharge while in the holster then a DQ could be applied. Personally I try and discourage the Admin reload with 1911's but we're all grown here. Just my 2 cents.

I'm sorry, but I find this very hard to believe. If your gun goes "bang" when you insert another magazine - IT IS BROKEN. Whether you do a mag change in your holster or in the air, that should not make any difference. And if your trigger is so light you are worried about it MALFUNCTIONING and going off when you insert the magazine, your pistol is UNSAFE and you should be DQ'd. There is not a pistol on this PLANET that should go bang when you insert the magazine. (Open bolt SMG's are out of the picture, don't worry I asked!)

I have been taught the admin reload in many many training classes where there are tons of shooters on the line so you don't have people out fumbling with the gun when they don't need to be. It also allows you to chamber a round in a safe direction, lock the gun in the holster, then turn around and listen to the range master give instructions while you load mags, pick up gear, etc.

I have seen and performed, literally, hundreds if not thousands of these admin reloads and *never* seen a safety issue with it. The trigger is covered by the holster, and unless your pistol is BROKEN, it should not fire from merely being handled in the holster.

In this sport, if you have a ghost holster or some other sort of "perch" for your pistol, an admin load is not suggested as your gun is barely sitting there anyway. With a full shroud holster or a duty holster, there is no risk of the gun coming out from inserting a magazine.

If the shooter trains this way and this is how he wants to shoot it, you as a SO need to make sure the weapon is pointed in a safe direction and that is all. It is not your business to teach the shooter on the line how YOU think it should be done, unless they have asked for said advice.

[ima45dv8]

The original question of whether an "administrative reload" is allowed under USPSA rules has been clearly answered -- it is.

We're now straying into personal anecdotes on the subject, some with more than a little emotion.

I'm closing this as 'asked-and-answered'. If anyone has anything significant to add to the matter please PM a Moderator and we'll take it under consideration.

CLOSED.