Was I correct in stopping him?

[High Lord Gomer]

At a local match I was pretending to be an RO. The shooter made a shot and then I see a spring and rounds falling out of his gun. I told him to stop, since I wasn't sure if it was merely a mag malfunction or if something worse had happened and might have made shooting another round dangerous. We looked the gun over and didn't see any damage and he got a reshoot. I assumed that was correct, but reading stuff here I'm realizaing that there is a lot about the rules I need to learn. (I am signed up to take the RO class next month)

[Dan Hefta]

I am a new RO and not expert, but I would have stopped the shooter also, It was the right call in my mind. It's better to be safe than sorry.

[sperman]

Something similar happened on my squad at Area 6. Mid stage the guide rod went flying out the front of the gun. The shooter hesitated and looked at the RO who said "Stop." They called the RM over and he was given a re-shoot because the RO stopped him, but it looked to me like the shooter was about to stop himself. I'll admit to not reading the rule-book thoroughly, and I'm signed up for the same RO class as HLG. Are there any specific rules that talk about what constitutes an unsafe condition that warrants stopping the shooter?

[John2A]

In this case the shooter would have been given a re-shoot due to 5.7.7.2 because there was not a saftey problem found after the Range Officer gave the stop command due to suspected unsafe gun or Ammo.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

[Dan Hefta]

In this case the shooter would have been given a re-shoot due to 5.7.7.2 because there was not a saftey problem found after the Range Officer gave the stop command due to suspected unsafe gun or Ammo.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

Yah, what he said!

[High Lord Gomer]

Thank you!

Would someone tell my wife that I did something right?

[Dan Hefta]

If she's like mine, she won't listen to a man not matter who he is.

[matt2ace]

As the RO, you suspected that there was a safety problem......you made the right call no matter what the outcome.

[SA Friday]

You absolutely HAVE to stop the shooter if you see a spring leave the gun while they are shooting. There are just too many thing that could go wrong at that point. Hell, if I see any part leave the gun (and I can't ID that it was something like the POS stock glock front sight) I'm stopping the shooter.

Then you follow the rules John posted.

Hmmm, are you saying you were ROing your wife during a course of fire? Dude, put the timer down and slowly back away. There is everything to lose and nothing to gain in this scenario.

[dqshooter]

You did the right thing, it is better to error on the side of safety. The more experience you get on the range the better RO you will be.

On the other hand if the shooter stops and looks at you because he/she knows something is wrong and is fishing for a reshoot, give the following command " If you are finished" and nothing else. You may have to repeat yourself several times to wipe out that deer in the headlight look from the shooter. You will find that certain shooters are easy to read and don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.

You made the right call.

[High Lord Gomer]

Hmmm, are you saying you were ROing your wife during a course of fire? Dude, put the timer down and slowly back away. There is everything to lose and nothing to gain in this scenario.

No, no, no...she doesn't shoot. If she did, I'd know better!

[ihatepickles]

Todd Jarrett has an unfortunate speed unload in the 2005 Limited Nationals DVD, but it happened as he slammed the mag home rather than firing. The baseplate, follower, and 20 rounds went tumbling out the bottom of the seated magazine. The RO was sharp enough not to stop the action and TJ didn't notice what had happened until his gun went bang-click.

I remember thinking "I wonder if I'd be able to process what I saw accurately enough as an RO and not stop him?". My gut would've been to stop the run when I saw parts fly too. I've got no problems with the RO stopping the very best run of my entire life if they thought I had a squib. Safety first.

[Nik Habicht]

At a local match I was pretending to be an RO. The shooter made a shot and then I see a spring and rounds falling out of his gun. I told him to stop, since I wasn't sure if it was merely a mag malfunction or if something worse had happened and might have made shooting another round dangerous. We looked the gun over and didn't see any damage and he got a reshoot. I assumed that was correct, but reading stuff here I'm realizaing that there is a lot about the rules I need to learn. (I am signed up to take the RO class next month)

Read section 5.7 of the rulebook --- it covers the entire gamut of things going wrong with competitor's equipment. I wouldn't stop a shooter for an unanticipated mag disassembly, nor would I stop a shooter for most jams, specifically because if I stop the shooter, they must reshoot the stage. That has the potential to affect the outcome of the match for all competitors in that division.....

Squibs of course are the major exception to that principle, and it's possible I might experience a few more.....

[Flexmoney]

Run enough shooters and you will see a mag pad come off and the spring from the mag/bullets go dumping out.

That is not grounds for stopping the shooter. It's not an unsafe gun. It's an equipment malfunction, which is on the shooter. But, you have to be paying attention and know just what you saw.

When you stop a shooter for that, and the gun proves to be safe...you have just granted them a reshoot that they didn't deserve. (The shooter is responsible to "bring stuff that works"...it's part of the game.)

----------------------

The shooter that had parts (guide rod) fly out of the gun... That sounds like a good "stop", but should not have been granted a reshoot. (based on what was posted)

[DarthMuffin]

Todd Jarrett has an unfortunate speed unload in the 2005 Limited Nationals DVD, but it happened as he slammed the mag home rather than firing. The baseplate, follower, and 20 rounds went tumbling out the bottom of the seated magazine. The RO was sharp enough not to stop the action and TJ didn't notice what had happened until his gun went bang-click.

Todd had a similar problem at the 2007 Nats in Missoula too (I got it on video somewhere). He had what he thought was a squib, looked at the RO, who didn't flinch, he said "I'm gonna blow up the gun", RO was still a rock, so he kept shooting ... and didn't blow up the gun. The rumor later that day was he was using some brand new brass that didn't have the primer hole drilled all the way through. If that was the case, the RO should have stopped him, otherwise he made the correct call. I don't remember hearing a squib, but I also wasn't in the RO's spot. I seem to remember Todd had other gun problems earlier in the stage and it wasn't going well, so perhaps the RO was just suspicious.

When I went through RO class the teacher advised us to watch for a competitor who's doing poorly, then pulls a mag out of a pocket or somewhere odd, and suddenly gets a squib. What you would find is an upside-down primer which sounds like a squib but isn't, so the shooter gets stopped and gets a reshoot. Now there's a rule about not using mags from pockets unless you don't have a choice. I assume exactly for this reason.

To get back on topic -- if I see a competitor's gun losing parts I'm stopping them. I'm right next to them and I also don't need a frame fragment piercing my face, thanks.

[High Lord Gomer]

When I went through RO class the teacher advised us to watch for a competitor who's doing poorly, then pulls a mag out of a pocket or somewhere odd, and suddenly gets a squib. What you would find is an upside-down primer which sounds like a squib but isn't, so the shooter gets stopped and gets a reshoot. Now there's a rule about not using mags from pockets unless you don't have a choice. I assume exactly for this reason.

I sure hope I don't run into people who are willing to cheat to try to win.

[Matt Cheely]

I've witnessed a case head separation cause a mag to unload itself. So if you can't tell what happened to cause it I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[BayouSlide]

I've witnessed a case head separation cause a mag to unload itself. So if you can't tell what happened to cause it I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Heck of a good point, Matt

I just love these threads...lots of food for thought.

Curtis

[LPatterson]

I've witnessed a case head separation cause a mag to unload itself. So if you can't tell what happened to cause it I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I have had that case head separation and speed magazine unload, later traced to rounds shortening themselves on the feed ramp. Needless to say I no longer use that brand of plated bullet.

[Chuck Anderson]

Todd Jarrett has an unfortunate speed unload in the 2005 Limited Nationals DVD, but it happened as he slammed the mag home rather than firing. The baseplate, follower, and 20 rounds went tumbling out the bottom of the seated magazine. The RO was sharp enough not to stop the action and TJ didn't notice what had happened until his gun went bang-click.

Todd had a similar problem at the 2007 Nats in Missoula too (I got it on video somewhere). He had what he thought was a squib, looked at the RO, who didn't flinch, he said "I'm gonna blow up the gun", RO was still a rock, so he kept shooting ... and didn't blow up the gun. The rumor later that day was he was using some brand new brass that didn't have the primer hole drilled all the way through. If that was the case, the RO should have stopped him, otherwise he made the correct call. I don't remember hearing a squib, but I also wasn't in the RO's spot. I seem to remember Todd had other gun problems earlier in the stage and it wasn't going well, so perhaps the RO was just suspicious.

When I went through RO class the teacher advised us to watch for a competitor who's doing poorly, then pulls a mag out of a pocket or somewhere odd, and suddenly gets a squib. What you would find is an upside-down primer which sounds like a squib but isn't, so the shooter gets stopped and gets a reshoot. Now there's a rule about not using mags from pockets unless you don't have a choice. I assume exactly for this reason.

To get back on topic -- if I see a competitor's gun losing parts I'm stopping them. I'm right next to them and I also don't need a frame fragment piercing my face, thanks.

Yep, this is what happened to Todd. He showed me the brass. Kinda funny since Todd shoots .38 TJ (for Todd Jarret). It's his own brass and it hosed him. The right call was exactly what the RO did. The shooter did not have a squib and had to keep shooting. We had a shooter at Nats this year who had two back to back stages with primers in backwards. Sounds the world like a squib, everyone in the squad thought they were squibs, but neither RO even heard them because they weren't wearing electronic muffs. On the second one the shooter tried for the reshoot thing but the RO had no idea what he was talking about. Ended up continuing. In neither case was this cheating. The round was in the LAMR ready mag, so unless he's a complete idiot he didn't intend for it to happen. I've never heard of a shooter inducing a squib. I've seen shooters back into RO's for a reshoot, or do some other silly stuff, but never giving themselves a squib. Who was the RO instructor that suggested that?

[kgunz11]

So why was TJ shooting brass that didn't have a primer hole drilled all the way thru? And how did he show you that on the range? TJ is a top tier competitor and I can't understand why he would bring ammo to a match knowing he had bad brass.

[Matt Cheely]

So why was TJ shooting brass that didn't have a primer hole drilled all the way thru? And how did he show you that on the range? TJ is a top tier competitor and I can't understand why he would bring ammo to a match knowing he had bad brass.

I'm guessing that it would pop the primer out of the pocket when it went off. Or at least partially dislodge it.

I will not use brand new brass at a match for this reason among others...

Edited May 8, 2009 by Matt Cheely

[GTOSHootr]

So why was TJ shooting brass that didn't have a primer hole drilled all the way thru? And how did he show you that on the range? TJ is a top tier competitor and I can't understand why he would bring ammo to a match knowing he had bad brass.

I think I remember him saying that as he was reloading something funny happen with the decapping pin, it bent or he found it broken, can't remember. So he pulled it out not seeing problem, thinking he did not need it for brand new brass. Then he had this malfunction at the match and later put two and two together that the piece of brass without the hole was what had messed up his decapping pin. I believe that when the primer went off, it backed itself out of the brass, which caused the jam to be pretty bad but also allowed you to see the brass without the flash hole.

[dqshooter]

I do not think and would hope that conpetitors do not cheat, but i have had a competitor(or two) try to back into me for no reason for a reshoot. You will always have the gamers and baggers that couldn't beat the top competitors on their best day but are going to try anything they can to get up there on the board. ihave had competitors argue every hit at a club match and then tank the classifier.......HMMMMMM. When a C class guy(me) beats several M's and A's in a classifier match on three stages, it makes you think. Maybe ROs should enforce 10.6 unsportman like conduct more often, it might make shooter think a little more and change their behavior.

[racerba]

... since I wasn't sure...

Since you weren't sure, you were correct to stop him. With experience in ROing and more experience on what things could go wrong, you will learn not to stop him in the future.