Building a Saiga for 3 gun

[Greg Q]

Clear polycarbonate doesn't hold up long term for firearms applications. We told AGP they were a bad idea...they don't make them anymore. The Surfiregunmags will inevitably run into longevity problems too. Oil, solvents, carbon from shooting the gun will all degrade the integrity of the plastic over time. Get the black mags, they will last a lot longer.

The clear mags will last much longer than the black. AGP stopped making them because the polycarbonate material shrinks to the molds and breaks the pins off during the manufacturing process and the material is 12% more expensive to buy. I have sold 4-5000 AGP's with 100-200 black mags being return because they broke. We had Zero Clear mag problems. It is exactly the same with the Surefires.

Besides they look cool.

Greg

[Garryowen]

Clear polycarbonate doesn't hold up long term for firearms applications. We told AGP they were a bad idea...they don't make them anymore. The Surfiregunmags will inevitably run into longevity problems too. Oil, solvents, carbon from shooting the gun will all degrade the integrity of the plastic over time. Get the black mags, they will last a lot longer.

The clear mags will last much longer than the black. AGP stopped making them because the polycarbonate material shrinks to the molds and breaks the pins off during the manufacturing process and the material is 12% more expensive to buy. I have sold 4-5000 AGP's with 100-200 black mags being return because they broke. We had Zero Clear mag problems. It is exactly the same with the Surefires.

Besides they look cool.

Greg

Greg,

I don't sell mags, I have just been making things out of plastic for most of my life :-)

PC is a better material than Nylon (as long as it's a UV stabilized PC), unless it comes in contact with fluorocarbons. If is does, it will be attacked and broken down at the molecular level and fail 100% of the time. So with this scientific fact in mind, knock yourselves out and use whatever you like.

[SinistralRifleman]

Molds are designed to work with a particular material. If you make it to work with glass filled nylon, and then shoot polycarbonate through it yes the shrink rates will be different. Polycarbonate also doesn't release from molds as easily. This is part of the reason they quit making them.

The oils and cleaners commonly used on guns contain fluorocarbons. While it may not make the mag melt into a pile of goop instantly, it will make them prone to stress fractures over time. Every clear polycarbonate mag I have seen that has actually been used extensively has developed stress fractures on the feed lips and the area where it locks into the gun. This includes HK G36 magazines, Black Dog Machine clear mags, Ruger mini-14 mags, and yes even the clear Saiga-12 magazines.

I've been using the same black mags for almost 3 years, with 10,000+ rounds fired. The only time I have broken one was throwing the gun with mag inserted into a grounding barrel meant for tube fed shotguns on the run during a stage.

[bigbrowndog]

Oh sure garry, cloud the discussion with facts, thats just what everyone needs!!!!

Its quite obvious you simply don't like the other mags.

Sorry i couldn't refuse interjecting a little sarcasm..........trapr

[Greg Q]

Molds are designed to work with a particular material. If you make it to work with glass filled nylon, and then shoot polycarbonate through it yes the shrink rates will be different. Polycarbonate also doesn't release from molds as easily. This is part of the reason they quit making them.

The oils and cleaners commonly used on guns contain fluorocarbons. While it may not make the mag melt into a pile of goop instantly, it will make them prone to stress fractures over time. Every clear polycarbonate mag I have seen that has actually been used extensively has developed stress fractures on the feed lips and the area where it locks into the gun. This includes HK G36 magazines, Black Dog Machine clear mags, Ruger mini-14 mags, and yes even the clear Saiga-12 magazines.

I've been using the same black mags for almost 3 years, with 10,000+ rounds fired. The only time I have broken one was throwing the gun with mag inserted into a grounding barrel meant for tube fed shotguns on the run during a stage.

Not trying to argue with anyone, you both have good points.

The black mags mags are great mags, but a small percentage get returned from breaking. I have had none of the clear mags returned for any reason AGP or Surefire. That could change long term, but not yet. I also have several AGP polycarbonate mags that I have 8000+ rounds through with no problems at all.

It's not very fair to the manufacture to talk about how these will not hold up if you do not own one or actually have one of these brands made for the Saiga 12 that has failed.

Greg

[Garryowen]

It's not very fair to the manufacture to talk about how these will not hold up if you do not own one or actually have one of these brands made for the Saiga 12 that has failed.

Greg

Greg,

I do not make or sell any magazines or have any relationship with either company and honestly wish them both all the success in the world...but...

I hear Hydrogen will float an air ship as good or better then helium. With that said, I don't own any airships, but if I was going to get one, I would generally avoid the Hydrogen models... Is this unfair of me?

I only know what I know from working with plastics for 20 years and as I said before, buy which ever one you like best and got nuts with it.

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. but how many clear ones have you sold vs black ones? Are people actually using them the same? If they consciously avoid getting oils or cleaning solvents on them, they probably will last a long time.

Plastic is what we do. I don't need to buy a specific make of magazine to know the limitations of the material it is made of. If I take one of those magazines and spray it with gun scrubber, it will crack. If I spray them with oil it might take longer. The same reasons we posted in this thread are the same reasons we don't sell the CAV-15 in clear (even though people BEG us to sell them). They won't hold up long term, and though people try to avoid it oils/cleaners tend to get on things and compromise them.

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/24141-3/clearrifle1809.jpg

To be clear I have no issue with the Surefire Gun Mags, I do have an issue with clear magazines of any type for any gun made of polycarbonate.

[Jack T]

Clear polycarbonate doesn't hold up long term for firearms applications. We told AGP they were a bad idea...they don't make them anymore. The Surfiregunmags will inevitably run into longevity problems too. Oil, solvents, carbon from shooting the gun will all degrade the integrity of the plastic over time. Get the black mags, they will last a lot longer.

The clear mags will last much longer than the black. AGP stopped making them because the polycarbonate material shrinks to the molds and breaks the pins off during the manufacturing process and the material is 12% more expensive to buy. I have sold 4-5000 AGP's with 100-200 black mags being return because they broke. We had Zero Clear mag problems. It is exactly the same with the Surefires.

Besides they look cool.

Greg

Greg,

I don't sell mags, I have just been making things out of plastic for most of my life :-)

PC is a better material than Nylon (as long as it's a UV stabilized PC), unless it comes in contact with fluorocarbons. If is does, it will be attacked and broken down at the molecular level and fail 100% of the time. So with this scientific fact in mind, knock yourselves out and use whatever you like.

If you don't want to use clear magazines then don't. But you are throwing a bad cant on a good product.

Gregg is one of the most reputable dealers out there and he has a much better feel for what works and doesn't work as he works directly with the customer and his sales speak clearly of that fact when it comes to the Surefire Clear Magazines.

He deals with hundreds of customers and thousands of magazines.

The clear magazines are like any other piece of equipment, when they are properly maintained, they have an indefinite life.

Yeah salt corrodes metals, but I am not going to leave my weapons unnecessarily exposed, nor am I going to leave my magazines exposed long term to solvents and such. You are talking basic preventive maintenance and taking care of your equipment.

Your comments regarding flurocarbons is correct, but what you fail to mention is the fact, not all cleaners, solvents, and oils contain fluorcarbons. Oils like tetra and silicon based lubes do contain flurocarbons. Again, just basic maintenance is all that is required.

The clear magazines have a definite purpose for the game we play. If you want to reverse load for a stage that is mixed for shot/slugs/shot and or buck, it is hard to beat a clear magazine to verify you have loaded correctly.

Shoot me head to head and I will spank you with my "Clear" magazines. Yeah, that is a challenge!!

Regards,

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

Edited May 6, 2009 by Jack T

[Greg Q]

I'm not trying to be argumentative. but how many clear ones have you sold vs black ones? Are people actually using them the same? If they consciously avoid getting oils or cleaning solvents on them, they probably will last a long time.

Plastic is what we do. I don't need to buy a specific make of magazine to know the limitations of the material it is made of. If I take one of those magazines and spray it with gun scrubber, it will crack. If I spray them with oil it might take longer. The same reasons we posted in this thread are the same reasons we don't sell the CAV-15 in clear (even though people BEG us to sell them). They won't hold up long term, and though people try to avoid it oils/cleaners tend to get on things and compromise them.

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/24141-3/clearrifle1809.jpg

To be clear I have no issue with the Surefire Gun Mags, I do have an issue with clear magazines of any type for any gun made of polycarbonate.

Cool picture of the AR.

Surefire clears are brand new. With the AGP's I sold 2000 Clear and 2700-3000 Black when I was selling them.

I do not know how they were cleaned or used once they left my shop. I only know which ones had problems from customer feedback.

You may be 100% correct with the long term effect, but I have no proof of it.

Greg

[Garryowen]

If you don't want to use clear magazines then don't. But you are throwing a bad cant on a good product.

Gregg is one of the most reputable dealers out there and he has a much better feel for what works and doesn't work as he works directly with the customer and his sales speak clearly of that fact when it comes to the Surefire Clear Magazines.

He deals with hundreds of customers and thousands of magazines.

The clear magazines are like any other piece of equipment, when they are properly maintained, they have an indefinite life.

Yeah salt corrodes metals, but I am not going to leave my weapons unnecessarily exposed, nor am I going to leave my magazines exposed long term to solvents and such. You are talking basic preventive maintenance and taking care of your equipment.

The clear magazines have a definite purpose for the game we play. If you want to reverse load for a stage that is mixed for shot/slugs/shot and or buck, it is hard to beat a clear magazine to verify you have loaded correctly.

Shoot me head to head and I will spank you with my "Clear" magazines. Yeah, that is a challenge!!

Regards,

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

Er...ok

The clear mags make you shoot faster somehow? Well I guess there might be something to the use of PC in guns if they make you shoot faster/straighter :-)

I stand corrected, disregard the fact that all of the products used to clean/lube firearms will destroy PC, People like to buy clear mags, so disregard my past few posts, I didn't know what I was saying.

[matt t]

Getting back on topic (by the way I love clear or black mags). If a man was wanting to buy a Saiga ready to compete in 3 gun, who would be the best source? It is funny, I mentioned that a Saiga would be a good gun for 3 gun two years ago at my local club. Everyone laughed and said it was a trashy gun, so I sold it and bought a Benelli. I like the Saige better for the record and it was a whole lot cheaper.

[Ross Carter]

I put in an order with CSS and I'll see how the clear ones do. I haven't received them yet but the communication has been first class and I like the fact that they post how many they have in stock on the web site.

[Greg Q]

Getting back on topic (by the way I love clear or black mags). If a man was wanting to buy a Saiga ready to compete in 3 gun, who would be the best source? It is funny, I mentioned that a Saiga would be a good gun for 3 gun two years ago at my local club. Everyone laughed and said it was a trashy gun, so I sold it and bought a Benelli. I like the Saige better for the record and it was a whole lot cheaper.

Jack Travers is building them for most of the top level competitors. I have 2 of his now with collapsible stocks ready to ship if you are interested.

You can also PM Jack directly depending on what you are looking for.

Greg

Edited May 7, 2009 by Greg Q

[rupie]

Getting back on topic (by the way I love clear or black mags). If a man was wanting to buy a Saiga ready to compete in 3 gun, who would be the best source? It is funny, I mentioned that a Saiga would be a good gun for 3 gun two years ago at my local club. Everyone laughed and said it was a trashy gun, so I sold it and bought a Benelli. I like the Saige better for the record and it was a whole lot cheaper.

Jack Travers is building them for most of the top level competitors. I have 2 of his now with collapsible stocks ready to ship if you are interested.

You can also PM Jack directly depending on what you are looking for.

Greg

I don't see them on you web sight

[Loves2Shoot]

Trapr,

Actually, Jack Travers came up with the straight-insert mag well (itself a much-improved version of the Russian system). Robert liked it so much...as well as Jack's neat safety...that he builds his own, after Jack sold him some "Chinese blueprints" in good faith. Interesting. Much like Robert's mid-barrel comp (laughs).

Lot of that stuff going on these days...Robert knocking off Jack's stuff, Henning ripping the F2...must be a shortage of original ideas

Alex

Alex,

Please be careful spout crap about folks that is not true.

Had Robert he wanted Chinese blueprints he would have bought 1 comp, not 20. The new comps he is making (mine has two Dreadnaught's) are a joint venture with John Paul and are going to be badged JP. If you don't like it then take it up with John. Jack already chimed in about the magwell, but smack talking someone who doesn't deserve it should not be tolerated here.

[outerlimits]

this thread is about to get closed...

[CraigS.]

Trapr,

Actually, Jack Travers came up with the straight-insert mag well (itself a much-improved version of the Russian system). Robert liked it so much...as well as Jack's neat safety...that he builds his own, after Jack sold him some "Chinese blueprints" in good faith. Interesting. Much like Robert's mid-barrel comp (laughs).

Lot of that stuff going on these days...Robert knocking off Jack's stuff, Henning ripping the F2...must be a shortage of original ideas

Alex

Alex,

Please be careful spout crap about folks that is not true.

Had Robert he wanted Chinese blueprints he would have bought 1 comp, not 20. The new comps he is making (mine has two Dreadnaught's) are a joint venture with John Paul and are going to be badged JP. If you don't like it then take it up with John. Jack already chimed in about the magwell, but smack talking someone who doesn't deserve it should not be tolerated here.

How about calling Robert Wright directly (503-551-7283) to voice your concerns , that would be more apropreate.

Craig

[busyhawk]

Dustin,

Great picture...no problems at this end.

RLTW,

Scott

[GentlemanJim]

I think these guns are up and coming

I have seen guns from the big 3 building them here..sorry if I missed somebody

And I have in hand or have on order parts built by all three

I personally thank Alex Jack and Robert for pioneering this platform

And those clear mags....when loading for a mixed bird and slug stage it will be an asset.

Thanks Guys!!!

Jim

[Dustin Lohof]

Stay tuned for R&R Targets 19 round stick mag. If any one person is responsible for the straight-insert mag well or a comp for the Saga - 12, then Al Gore invented the internet.

Dusty

[kurtm]

Before all you he-manly Saiga shooters kill each other, the FIRST straight in mag well/set up I ever saw was in Terni Italy at the first European Shotgun Championships in 2003, on a Russian open Molot, and HE got the IDEA from a guy in FINLAND, so unless all yall, started making these back in 2003, I would chalk all of this up to parallel development. OH yea BTW it had a comp on it that looked alot like the ones pictured...way back in 2003....HMMMM....pesky Russians! Oh and just to stir the pot, ALL the Mags I have seen for the Molots/Veprs/Saigas overseas have been.....BLACK

[busyhawk]

Before all you he-manly Saiga shooters kill each other, the FIRST straight in mag well/set up I ever saw was in Terni Italy at the first European Shotgun Championships in 2003, on a Russian open Molot, and HE got the IDEA from a guy in FINLAND, so unless all yall, started making these back in 2003, I would chalk all of this up to parallel development. OH yea BTW it had a comp on it that looked alot like the ones pictured...way back in 2003....HMMMM....pesky Russians! Oh and just to stir the pot, ALL the Mags I have seen for the Molots/Veprs/Saigas overseas have been.....BLACK

Hence why Dustin made his statement of "If any one person is responsible for the straight-insert mag well or a comp for the Saga - 12" ....I bet you really think Al invented the internet:-)

Not very often I can rag on Kurtm...or are you going by another name today?

RLTW,

Scott

[kurtm]

Scott, Scott, Scott, My reply wasn't aimed at Dustin......and I DO believe that Al invented the internet......Weird Al that is

And now for a classic "Which came first" question The Saiga, or the paranoid Saiga owner/builder. I know you will know what I am talking about when I say....Warren Commission.

How the leg doing? WhoeverM

[Jack T]

You go Kurt!! I have been real nice lately since I haven't been stuck in the house because of bad weather. I get testy when I can not go out and Play!!

Absolutely, there is nothing we have done on updating a firearm that has not already been done in the past. Just not necessarily to the Saigas.

My idea for the magwell originated from a picture of the russian magwell. I just had a better idea on how to mount it to the gun where it could be done at the customer level without the need of a milling machine. Plus, I could not get a Russian Magwell, so I developed my own. Whatever it takes to get faster!!

They are a pretty neat platform to play with and a lot of fun to shoot once it is properly tuned.

Will be seeing some of you guys at the MGM Ironman.

Regards,

Jack Travers

Edited May 9, 2009 by Jack T

[busyhawk]

Jack,

Can't wait to meet you in person at the Iron-Man. Of course I just want to RO you:-)

WhoeverM,

My leg got a nasty infection and 2 days ago I just got out of the Naval Hospital in Bremerton after a extended stay! 2 of the screws came loose (my wife said now she has proof of!) and they had to remove them. I am hooked up to a PICC line which goes straight to my heart (I didn't think I had one) to feed my body the much needed antibiotics. I have to remain on this thing for another 43 days, 9 hours and 42 minuites...not that I am counting. Yes, I am still counting on being at the Iron-Man with all my meds!

RLTW,

Scott