"range is clear" when?

[trowlfaz]

Hello!

While new to RO'ing - I am not new to shooting. Last night was a first night of RO'ing for me. I had a shooter who did holster his gun. Once I saw it in the holster, I called "range is clear". Technically his hand was probably on the gun. He (who is also an RO) said I was premature in calling "range is clear" as his hand was still on the gun.

I can see his point - but (isn't there always one of those) a couple of us consulted the rule book. While some of the old timers claimed that there used to be a statement in the rule book that the hand must be off the gun to call "range is clear", the Jan 2008 book does not make such a distinction.

I know that safety trumps all, but which is the accepted standard? Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book? Or is it declared some place where we did not look? I just want to make sure I do things right, so TIA for your input.

Thank you!

[HoMiE]

Similiar topics talking about just when the course of fire is complete and the "Range is Clear" command should be given.

The old rule book said once the hand is clear, but now the call is put on the RO.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79538

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=75174

Edited March 24, 2009 by HoMiE

[JThompson]

Hello!

While new to RO'ing - I am not new to shooting. Last night was a first night of RO'ing for me. I had a shooter who did holster his gun. Once I saw it in the holster, I called "range is clear". Technically his hand was probably on the gun. He (who is also an RO) said I was premature in calling "range is clear" as his hand was still on the gun.

I can see his point - but (isn't there always one of those) a couple of us consulted the rule book. While some of the old timers claimed that there used to be a statement in the rule book that the hand must be off the gun to call "range is clear", the Jan 2008 book does not make such a distinction.

I know that safety trumps all, but which is the accepted standard? Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book? Or is it declared some place where we did not look? I just want to make sure I do things right, so TIA for your input.

Thank you!

You wait for the hand to leave the gun... is some cases the shooter might have a holster issue that requires attention to retain the gun or some other type problem which can leave him hold the gun. If he/she need to remove the pistol to fix the issue they can do so while under your supervision. If you call RC and they still are having an issue... but more than that it's just to make sure the gun will stay where it's put and the shooter has it locked down or secured properly. This is more of an issue with race type holsters.

JT

Edited March 24, 2009 by JThompson

[SA Friday]

I wait till the hand leaves the gun AND the holster before calling all clear. For example, if I waited till a guy with a ghost holster takes his hand off the gun, call range clear, and then he dumps the gun while trying to put the lock on, I have to wade through the crap to figure out if he's DQed or not. If I wait till his hands are clear of both to call all clear, then if he dumps the gun before the all clear call, it's a clear cut DQ. Not that I like to DQ people, but it's much more clear as to the following response if I wait to make the call.

Also, I have seen shooters who have had to make an adjustment to a holster or the gun after initial holtering, but couldn't get it to seat and lock. Can be something like a part of the shirt getting stuck in the mix somewhere or the lock got bumped while shooting and they now have to pull the gun out of the holster, unlock and reholster... If I called clear, you have all those highly motivated and eager tapers down range and the problem becomes a safety concern instead of a simple readjustment by the shooter.

Edited March 24, 2009 by SA Friday

[lcs]

Hello!

While new to RO'ing - I am not new to shooting. Last night was a first night of RO'ing for me. I had a shooter who did holster his gun. Once I saw it in the holster, I called "range is clear". Technically his hand was probably on the gun. He (who is also an RO) said I was premature in calling "range is clear" as his hand was still on the gun.

I can see his point - but (isn't there always one of those) a couple of us consulted the rule book. While some of the old timers claimed that there used to be a statement in the rule book that the hand must be off the gun to call "range is clear", the Jan 2008 book does not make such a distinction.

I know that safety trumps all, but which is the accepted standard? Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book? Or is it declared some place where we did not look? I just want to make sure I do things right, so TIA for your input.

Thank you!

Welcome to world of ROing!

The shooter actually had is right hand on the gun and his left hand was engaging the lock (Ghost Holster). So, you have the potential of a dropped gun. RO calls RIC which signifies the end of the COF. There is a thread on almost this exact problem. If the gun was dropped, do you as the RO (a) DQ the shooter (b See if the shooter handles the dropped gun according to the rules of a dropped gun outside the COF?

So the question is, "Did the shooter really have the gun in the holster" by a common sense or safety sense definition of "If clear, hammer down and holster" before issuing Range is Clear?

Race holsters are sometimes hard to get in and locked the first time. I have seen many guys lift the gun back up and push it back in.

I always wait till I am positive the gun is in the holster and the shooter has moved his hands away from the gun before I give the RIC.

Edited March 24, 2009 by FullRace

[Tzygä]

I always wait till I am positive the gun is in the holster and the shooter has moved his hands away from the gun before I give the RIC.

Me too. I don't want to call it too early.

[DarthMuffin]

Just to play the devil's advocate here -- is there a rule that says the competitor HAS to take their hand off of their gun? I see people (especially race holster-type) all the time walking around the stage with their hand on the gun to keep it held in.

If I wanted to be an a**hole, could I stand there all day and not remove my hand?

[HoMiE]

Just to play the devil's advocate here -- is there a rule that says the competitor HAS to take their hand off of their gun? I see people (especially race holster-type) all the time walking around the stage with their hand on the gun to keep it held in.

If I wanted to be an a**hole, could I stand there all day and not remove my hand?

No, rule doesn't say your hand has to be clear of gun anymore. You could stand there all day with your hand on grip, it's up to the RO to issue the RIC command.

[Tzygä]

Just to play the devil's advocate here -- is there a rule that says the competitor HAS to take their hand off of their gun? I see people (especially race holster-type) all the time walking around the stage with their hand on the gun to keep it held in.

If I wanted to be an a**hole, could I stand there all day and not remove my hand?

No, rule doesn't say your hand has to be clear of gun anymore. You could stand there all day with your hand on grip, it's up to the RO to issue the RIC command.

In that case I would ask nicely if he/she is holstered the gun securely and let me to see it that I can call RIC and we can check the targets.

[kgunz11]

I wait till the hand leaves the gun AND the holster before calling all clear. For example, if I waited till a guy with a ghost holster takes his hand off the gun, call range clear, and then he dumps the gun while trying to put the lock on, I have to wade through the crap to figure out if he's DQed or not. If I wait till his hands are clear of both to call all clear, then if he dumps the gun before the all clear call, it's a clear cut DQ. Not that I like to DQ people, but it's much more clear as to the following response if I wait to make the call.

Also, I have seen shooters who have had to make an adjustment to a holster or the gun after initial holtering, but couldn't get it to seat and lock. Can be something like a part of the shirt getting stuck in the mix somewhere or the lock got bumped while shooting and they now have to pull the gun out of the holster, unlock and reholster... If I called clear, you have all those highly motivated and eager tapers down range and the problem becomes a safety concern instead of a simple readjustment by the shooter.

But you have already visually seen the gun clear and the hammer has verified your visual. If you called "range is safe", then it is. Just like if a shooter dropped the gun while picking up a piece of brass, no more of a safety concern then is it? The range is deemed safe by the gun being cleared and confirmed by you. A gun falling out of the holster after the range is called safe is no different then it falling out 2 minutes after the call.

IMO, the range should be called safe when the gun is properly holstered and the lock is applied if it has one, and not until then. That's a common sense opinion, not one justified by any rule books or certification.

[JThompson]

It's true there isn't a rule saying the hand must come off, but my range isn't going clear until it does.

[Fireant]

It's true there isn't a rule saying the hand must come off, but my range isn't going clear until it does.

+1 there. I get local RO's all in a hurry to call the range clear before I have the lock on and feel the gun is secure. Don't hurry that part, hurry the shooters that are not pasting.

[kgunz11]

+1 on the non participating paster folks.

[Flexmoney]

Just to play the devil's advocate here -- is there a rule that says the competitor HAS to take their hand off of their gun? I see people (especially race holster-type) all the time walking around the stage with their hand on the gun to keep it held in.

If I wanted to be an a**hole, could I stand there all day and not remove my hand?

No, rule doesn't say your hand has to be clear of gun anymore. You could stand there all day with your hand on grip, it's up to the RO to issue the RIC command.

I'd request that the shooter remove their hand (or let me know if there was a problem). Seems like a reasonable request.

If somebody's holster won't hold their gun, then we are going to have to deal with that.

[SA Friday]

I wait till the hand leaves the gun AND the holster before calling all clear. For example, if I waited till a guy with a ghost holster takes his hand off the gun, call range clear, and then he dumps the gun while trying to put the lock on, I have to wade through the crap to figure out if he's DQed or not. If I wait till his hands are clear of both to call all clear, then if he dumps the gun before the all clear call, it's a clear cut DQ. Not that I like to DQ people, but it's much more clear as to the following response if I wait to make the call.

Also, I have seen shooters who have had to make an adjustment to a holster or the gun after initial holtering, but couldn't get it to seat and lock. Can be something like a part of the shirt getting stuck in the mix somewhere or the lock got bumped while shooting and they now have to pull the gun out of the holster, unlock and reholster... If I called clear, you have all those highly motivated and eager tapers down range and the problem becomes a safety concern instead of a simple readjustment by the shooter.

But you have already visually seen the gun clear and the hammer has verified your visual. If you called "range is safe", then it is. Just like if a shooter dropped the gun while picking up a piece of brass, no more of a safety concern then is it? The range is deemed safe by the gun being cleared and confirmed by you. A gun falling out of the holster after the range is called safe is no different then it falling out 2 minutes after the call.

IMO, the range should be called safe when the gun is properly holstered and the lock is applied if it has one, and not until then. That's a common sense opinion, not one justified by any rule books or certification.

I modified my post as it was unclear.

Nice call JT

[Flexmoney]

Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book?

It probably should be made more clear on the next rule book update.

As it is, the IPSC rule book uses the wording USPSA had in their last rule book. USPSA updated this wording...probably to deal with a weird situation that came up.

It seems like the wording could be improved pretty ease, to encompass the best wording of both versions.

But, to answer your main question, best practice is to not give the Range Is Clear command until both hands are clear. (As a shooter, it's probably good practice to holster and actually show both hands being clear.)

[ChuckS]

Don't hurry that part, hurry the shooters that are not pasting.

You can get guys to not paste faster???

I wait until guys with race holsters get done messing around with the controls and remove their hand. Guys with pouches just seem to get it done right away. I really don't remember seeing much delay in either case.

Later,

Chuck

ETA: Now that I think about it I typically raise both of my hands in a chest-high surrender when I have put everything away. Not sure where I got that...

Edited March 24, 2009 by ChuckS

[JThompson]

Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book?

It probably should be made more clear on the next rule book update.

As it is, the IPSC rule book uses the wording USPSA had in their last rule book. USPSA updated this wording...probably to deal with a weird situation that came up.

It seems like the wording could be improved pretty ease, to encompass the best wording of both versions.

But, to answer your main question, best practice is to not give the Range Is Clear command until both hands are clear. (As a shooter, it's probably good practice to holster and actually show both hands being clear.)

I holster, lock and bring my hand up and splay my fingers so the RO knows. It's just good etiquette and everyone is on the same page.

[Gary Stevens]

I am all for making rules as clear as possible, but some things always make me wonder. Hundreds if not thousands of shooters are ran each weekend and almost always everything runs very well. Then you have one shooter or one RO who can't get with the program, and the first thing that happens is a call for a rule change.

Seems like there is almost a parallel situation in some others areas that I am not allowed to speak of here due to forum rules.

Very interesting.

[uscbigdawg]

I'd have to go with JT on this one. It's more a function of etiquette than a necessity of a rule.

I clear the pistol pretty fast and once holstered and locked I usually turn to the RO, give him a smile and wait for the RIC command. Then do whatever needs to be done (brass, tape, check hits, etc.).

Rich

[larry cazes]

Hello!

While new to RO'ing - I am not new to shooting. Last night was a first night of RO'ing for me. I had a shooter who did holster his gun. Once I saw it in the holster, I called "range is clear". Technically his hand was probably on the gun. He (who is also an RO) said I was premature in calling "range is clear" as his hand was still on the gun.

I can see his point - but (isn't there always one of those) a couple of us consulted the rule book. While some of the old timers claimed that there used to be a statement in the rule book that the hand must be off the gun to call "range is clear", the Jan 2008 book does not make such a distinction.

I know that safety trumps all, but which is the accepted standard? Should this be made more clear once again in the rule book? Or is it declared some place where we did not look? I just want to make sure I do things right, so TIA for your input.

Thank you!

I think there are very good reasons NOT to have a rule governing this. As the RO, you are in charge of the range and are responsible for ensuring the safety of the shooters. You must use your judgment here and NOT issue the RIC command until you are comfortable that it is. I don't think a consistent rule could be written to deal with the dynamic situations that occur regularly and to attempt to write one could be counterproductive to that end.

[boz1911]

I wait till the hand leaves the gun AND the holster before calling all clear. For example, if I waited till a guy with a ghost holster takes his hand off the gun, call range clear, and then he dumps the gun while trying to put the lock on, I have to wade through the crap to figure out if he's DQed or not. If I wait till his hands are clear of both to call all clear, then if he dumps the gun before the all clear call, it's a clear cut DQ. Not that I like to DQ people, but it's much more clear as to the following response if I wait to make the call.

Also, I have seen shooters who have had to make an adjustment to a holster or the gun after initial holtering, but couldn't get it to seat and lock. Can be something like a part of the shirt getting stuck in the mix somewhere or the lock got bumped while shooting and they now have to pull the gun out of the holster, unlock and reholster... If I called clear, you have all those highly motivated and eager tapers down range and the problem becomes a safety concern instead of a simple readjustment by the shooter.

But you have already visually seen the gun clear and the hammer has verified your visual. If you called "range is safe", then it is. Just like if a shooter dropped the gun while picking up a piece of brass, no more of a safety concern then is it? The range is deemed safe by the gun being cleared and confirmed by you. A gun falling out of the holster after the range is called safe is no different then it falling out 2 minutes after the call.

IMO, the range should be called safe when the gun is properly holstered and the lock is applied if it has one, and not until then. That's a common sense opinion, not one justified by any rule books or certification.

"Range is clear" please, not range is safe.........Hell there's people with guns on the range

[shred]

A consistent rule set is key to making any sport work. Relying unnecessarily on the judgment call IMO isn't the correct way to go about it. What was 'broken' with the last rule?

Millions of cars drive around safely every day... it's only when two mistakes get made at the same time that we get a new stop sign.

[Gary Stevens]

The reason for the rule change has been discussed previously.

[lcs]

The reason for the rule change has been discussed previously.

Gary,

For those of us who do not know the reason why the rule was changed and the search feature is not productive, could you just quickly explain why the rule did change?

TIA