Winchester 231

[diehli]

So, I'm getting everything together to start reloading. According to Hodgdon's burn rate chart, Winchester 231 is pretty close to Accurate #2, the powder that Benny recommends as a part of the load for a Fat Free .40.

I have the opportunity to by some 231 locally (don't even know where to start looking for AA#2, though I have a pound that I bought out of state) and am wondering if it's worth developing a load with this powder or if I shouldn't even bother. Is it inconsistent? Excessively dirty? Have more of a punch? Anything else I should know?

Looking forward to your replies. THANKS!

[kindlyoldcoach]

Winchester 231 is, along with Hercules's (now Alliant) Bullseye, one of the two benchmark powders for accuracy work in .38 Special and .45 ACP creampuff target loads. Has been this way for years. We bullseye shooters think of them as staple food products. Another analogy would be to mention Ford and Chevrolet small-block V8s. Always been there, and always will be, in some capacity.

231 is one of the fastest-burning powders, meters well, and can be dirty in some loads. I know NOTHING about what an IPSC .40 needs to work properly and not blow up. However, for quality and accuracy potential in proven loads, 231 is beyond reproach.

If you can find reliable, applicable 231 load data that meets your velocity requirements, do not hesitate to load with this powder.

[diehli]

Maass has a lot of loads with varying velocities, power factors, and bullet weights listed, so I think I'll probably go for it.

Thanks for the reply. BTW, you having a Bloody Mary with that celery? (I though the same thing )

[Flexmoney]

My understanding is that it is dirty...and pressure sensitive.

There are far better choices for 40.

TiteGroup being one of the most available in the local stores.

[rhino]

I'm a doofus with respect to reloading, but I know that W231 is the classic powder for .45 loads. My brother's "old faithful" load from the early 80s until the present is a 200gr LSWC over 5.8gr of W231.

I don't know how or if any of that relates to .40 loads, but W231 is definitely a known and proven product!

[kimel]

I used to load W231 for .40 but gave it up as wayyyy too dirty. I now load Titegroup and am not looking back.

I have a lot of W231 around but will burn it up where all the dirt and grunge isn't as big a problem...like in revos and other autos that I shoot for fun and where my round count is a lot lower.

[jessej]

I started loading the .40 cal with W231. It is a little dirty. Does meter well. For minor loads I would not hesitate to use it. But at major power factor I would use caution. I had a friend blow up is Browning HP .40 with 5.5 gr over a 180 gr lead using a Dillon 650. He didn't get hurt, just ruined a mag.

I prefer using VV340. Seems to feel better and safer.

[Flexmoney]

I am going to go a bit further here.

When I think of powders that I won't load Major 40 with...231 is at the tip-top of that list.

As Rhino said...it is tried and true in the 45. But, 40 pressures are well past 45's safety limits.

[joshua]

Weird because 231 was the powder I was using when I started shooting a single stack 40 with an unsupported barrel, and that was at the old power factor. Maybe I was playing with fire there and lucky I didn't get burned, but to tell you the truth I never had indications of over pressure with my brass. I got about 5 loadings with my brass or until I lost them. I think my load was 5 grns with a 170 LSWC. I've shot my Para with TG and I will tell you now that the TG is snappier but with the right spring the sights came back on target much quicker. 231 wasn't clean burning for me, not as clean as TG but not as dirty as Unique.

[Garrett]

I have used 231 for years in my .45s, but use N320 for my .40 loads. Some will tell you 231 is dirty. It leaves a thin layer of soot about an inch back from the muzzle, but does not crud up the inside of the gun. What is there just wipes out.

I did work up some major .40 loads some years ago with it. Switched to Vhit though.

[kurtm]

I use 231 in 40 all the time. I use it for heavy bullets like the 200gr west coast, in my 5" gun ( heavy STI). in this gun it is great 4.5 make power factor fairly well but it is close! I have found it is fairly inconsistent as per velocity with SD around 40 fps, but I do still like it in the 5" gun.......Now on to the 6" fat free!! 231 was a bad choice! it seemed to run out of pressure befor it ran out of barrel. In the 6" gun it was actually slower! by about 40fps dropping the load into minor. I tried AA#2 like Benny said to and found that it left alot of " sand like" residue in the gun and after a while 200-300 rounds the hammer would start to follow because of this stuff in the sear!! Every gun is different!! Benny's remains very clean. I tried all sorts of primers and crimps, but this barrel won't burn AA#2. I tried VV and Tightgroup. Tightgroup it was. I think 4.7 with a 180...clean, consistent, (SD of 7 fps), and accurate! 2" groups at 50yds. I will stick with TG on this one!

[Jeff Matzka]

I used to run a load (many years ago) of 5.8 gr 231 under a 200 gr. LSWC in my .45. I liked the load for accuracy reasons, and shootability, but combined with the mess of the lead bullets, it gummed the gun up real bad! I've never tried it in a .40, though. I probably wouldn't want to use it again, just because it was so dirty. I use clays in my .45 now. Love it.

[kevin c]

VV N320 for me. Lotsa folks here big on Titegroup. A number of shooters here in CA use International Clays.

[diehli]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe that the "factory" reloads that I have been shooting use W231 and it's QUITE dirty (I have a stain on a pair of shorts from the muzzle of my FF40).

Between Kyle's and Kurt's cautions (alliteration is gooooooood) I'm gonna pass. If there are any SoCal guys (near Huntington Beach) that are interested, check out calguns.net for the listing.

Can I get a vote going between Hodgdon Titegroup and Vihtavuori N320? The price difference looks to be huge. Ultimately I guess it's a trial and error thing, right?

[wide45]

My opinion is that WST is a better powder for .40 than TG.

WST is similar to 231, but less temp sensitive, and a little cleaner. It has less felt recoil than TG, but more than VV320.

[Flexmoney]

Can I get a vote going between Hodgdon Titegroup and Vihtavuori N320?

This thread could go on for five more pages of people voting between TG and VV320...and you still wouldn't have a clear answer.

The price difference looks to be huge.

Ultimately I guess it's a trial and error thing, right?

Right.

[paraman1]

I cant believe no-one here has mentioned Winchester Super Field . I use 5.8 grains with a 180 West coast bullet or 6.2 with a 165 grain berrys bullet and it has always worked well for me .

[Duane Thomas]

I started out shooting W231 in my .45 reloads. It's a ball powder that meters superbly, but it's very dirty.

Can I get a vote going between Hodgdon Titegroup and Vihtavuori N320? The price difference looks to be huge. Ultimately I guess it's a trial and error thing, right?

Strange you should ask. After a little over 15K .45 loads through my 1911 with Titegroup, I'm about to start playing with N320, just to see what happens. I'll let you know.

[Hagop]

I have experimented with powders for SAAMI specific chamberings for the .40 S&W wich is indicated in most reloading manuals at 1.135 oal.

And have tried HS-6, VV N350, Power Pistol,Universal Clays & Winchester Super Field.....and have come to choose two powders for SAAMI OAL for the .40 S&W and that would be Hodgdon's Universal Clays & Winchester's Super Field.....for consistency, cleanliness and efficiency.

As for freebored .40 S&W chamberings where the bullet is seated out longer than SAAMI specs.

I have tried and shot Hodgdon's International Clays, Clays, VV N320 & TiteGroup.....and have just recently settled on Hodgdon's TiteGroup behind a 180 gr. Hornady FMJ bullet seated to 1.230 oal.

I shot International Clays seated long for three years behind a 200gr. bullet before I made the transition to Titegroup.

So if we are taking votes for powders for the .40 S&W where the bullet is seated beyond SAAMI specs.... then, TiteGroup gets my vote.

Gentlemen

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Guys, after about 10K rounds loaded and fired I would have to give the nod to Hodgdon's universal clays for .40SW. Much cleaner and more economical then the others you've listed here. It's not worth a damn at the lower pressures of the .45acp but great for .40SW. So far WST get's my vote in .45acp.

[tightloop]

I bet I have shot 50 pounds of 231 in .45, but it is dirty and not nearly as good as the VV powders. No experience with 40, but 231 would not be my choice.

[ErikW]

Nobody mentioned one big drawback of 231: its sensitivity to temperature. Lots of stories of people going to the Minor leagues when it's cold at the chrono station.

[diehli]

Thanks for all the replies. Methinks I'm gonna buy a pound of VV N320, Winchester WST, and Titegroup to go with the pound of AA#2 that I have.

Only downside is now I have to buy a chrono.

Mahalo!

[Newguy]

I also found W231 very inconsistent in a .45--I was getting 60-90 fps differences w/i the same batch of reloads. Went to T.G. and suddenly the difference was only 20 fps. I use T.G. for both .45 and .40. Maybe there are better powders out there, but I'm just too lazy to experiment.

[George D]

I have no experience with 40 cal but I have loaded heaps of 38, 44 and 45 cal with both 231 and WST and I would lodge a second vote for WST. I find it meters better than 231 and is cleaner and softer.