Funny Math?

[SA Friday]

OK maybe I'm a tard for not knowing this yet, but I can't figure out how the classifiers get chosen for determining if you go up in class or not. Yes, before someone throws it out there, I know I'm devoid of anything resembling class... OK, so I'm right there on the cusp of A in Limited and I'm trying to figure out if an old classifier will be reused or not reused to figure out my class in the next go-around. Here are my current scores as from USPSA:

Date Number F Percent Entered

1/24/2009 99-62 C 55.8868 2/10/2009

6/29/2008 99-41 Y 80.1154 7/10/2008

6/29/2008 08_01 B 33.878 7/10/2008

6/29/2008 99-13 Y 61.9782 7/10/2008

6/29/2008 08_06 B 20 7/10/2008

6/29/2008 99-39 Y 71.9318 7/10/2008

6/28/2008 06_10 B 50.0004 7/10/2008

4/27/2008 99-12 B 34.8256 5/12/2008

4/20/2008 03_02 B 39.7975 5/30/2008

4/19/2008 06_05 Y 71.6849 5/13/2008

4/6/2008 99-19 C 56.7963 4/9/2008

10/20/07 99-22 B 26.5742 11/9/2007

9/23/2007 06_06 C 59.8982 1/31/2008

9/22/2007 99-52 B 47.9515 10/9/2007

8/5/2007 99-14 F 36.6666 8/9/2007

7/28/2007 99-27 F 27.4482 8/9/2007

3/4/2007 99-08 Y 47.5344 3/12/2007

2/18/2007 06_04 Y 43.1824 3/6/2007

11/18/06 06_04 E 83.7717 11/27/2006

7/2/2006 11-Jun E 46.9349 7/6/2006

Out of the four new ones that will be entered, two of them should count at 84% and 74%. I don't have exacts, but this should not matter unless I missed something... These two classifiers should cover the two horrible mid 40%'s that are currently being counted.

Here's the question: the scores put me so close to A that if the 61.97% is dropped and replaced with the 83.7% score, I make the jump. Or... is it the 61.97% is left in the counting and that puts me at aprox 73.9%.

I'm not sure how the scores are selected. Since the 83 puts me into a higher bracket, the 61 would be to low to count anymore? Or... the 83% has dropped since it was a while back and is no longer in the running for use to estimate the new score.

This is what "E" means for classification: This classifier was not used since it is not in the most recent 8 on file (or most recent 6 for initial classifications) at the time the classification update process was run. It may be used at subseqent runs of classification system if it is within the most recent 8 scores.

What the hell does this mean? Obviously, the score isn't within the 8 most recent scores, but then why keep it on the page of scores? Can it be used for future potential class upgrade? If not, then same question as to why it's kept on the page?

BTW, I know the scores are all over the place, but then so am I.

Edited to fix Window auto format screw ups. I swear, I find the A-hole who thinks auto-format is so cool to force it into every Windows program, I'm kickin him straight in the jimmy.

Edited March 14, 2009 by SA Friday

[shred]

You aren't ever likely to get 'E's back unless you move up more than one class different in another division, pulling this one higher.

Best bet is to assume the two new scores replace the two old Y's.... as long as the two bad ones don't count at all.

[Chris Keen]

The easiest way I've always found to figure out which classifiers get counted is ... to wait for the next update!

Sorry SA, it's not the most gratifying way, but it is the EASIEST way!

[SA Friday]

Regardless, I'm waiting for the update next month, and I'm good with that, but there has to be some way of knowing how to do this stuff. Or, is it more of the "we won't publish the HHF" (which is gay) kinda stuff. Anyone? Buler, Buler.

[Tom Freeman]

I am convinced that the USPSA classifier confuser has a internal dartboard and it just throws darts to figure out what counts and what doesent.

Your in the same jam I am when it comes to the first few classifiers. In revo I have a 54 and a 45 that count, but two around 82% dont. Until Nov 08 I had a 32% that counted. I gave up trying to figure it out at that point...

Edited March 17, 2009 by Tom Freeman

[boz1911]

Just count back the last 8 scores that count, drop the lowest two, average the best six and that will be your percentage. No older scores or duplicates will will be counted.

[Tom Freeman]

Unless you get caught in the first 6 snag and you have a higher classification in another division. Look up L-2598 revo and your head will explode.

[mgood]

Look up L-2598 revo and your head will explode.

I see what you mean. On your more recent scores, those between 80 and 84.9999 are "not used, since the score is below the minimum allowable based on the class in the other category . . . "

And scores below 80 are "more than 5% below the minimum score for your current class and cannot be used."

BUT, you have a 54, a 45, and a 77 from back in 2001-2002 which are used.

I have a theory, but I have not looked at enough scores to confirm it.

Maybe whether or not a classifier counts is based on what classification you were at the time those classifiers were shot rather than what you're classified now.

It still seems crazy that you have a 82.1425 that is not used while you have a 45.4611 that is used.

[lynn jones]

it's all a ponzi scam, you'll be a GM in no time!

[gose]

Look up L-2598 revo and your head will explode.

I see what you mean. On your more recent scores, those between 80 and 84.9999 are "not used, since the score is below the minimum allowable based on the class in the other category . . . "

And scores below 80 are "more than 5% below the minimum score for your current class and cannot be used."

BUT, you have a 54, a 45, and a 77 from back in 2001-2002 which are used.

I have a theory, but I have not looked at enough scores to confirm it.

Maybe whether or not a classifier counts is based on what classification you were at the time those classifiers were shot rather than what you're classified now.

It still seems crazy that you have a 82.1425 that is not used while you have a 45.4611 that is used.

Your first scores are used to get you from U, no matter what those scores are. Once you have your score, new ones wont count if they're more than 5% below your classification. However, the first ones _never_ get replaced with higher ones, if the newer ones are more than 5% below your classification (even if they happen to be higher than the first ones).

I've seen this for several shooters, so it's just not a problem with Tom's scores, it's just how their program works

It's not a very big deal, but it pushes your average down and makes it a little bit harder to up your classification in that division, so it would be nice if it could be changed/fixed...

[steel1212]

Just count back the last 8 scores that count, drop the lowest two, average the best six and that will be your percentage. No older scores or duplicates will will be counted.

What he said. Those oldest 2 Ys will be knocked off. When you get 2 more that count those 2 Fs will move to the 2 lowest classifiers you currently have counting. Now if you had say 4 entered at the same time as in a classifier match and those end up being the oldest they will knock off lowest ones first going up.

[SA Friday]

guess it's all moot now. Shot a 62.32% on the classifier last Sat. That's what I get for not practicing my hero or zero philosophy on these things...

[professor]

guess it's all moot now. Shot a 62.32% on the classifier last Sat. That's what I get for not practicing my hero or zero philosophy on these things...

You said there were 4 scores to be added, but only mentioned the 83.7% and a 74%. Are the other two below 60%, so they are going to be flagged "C"?

Anyway, the fact that you've got some scores flagged "C" already means that in addition to your current B rank in Limited, you're got an "A" rank in another Division. That means Limited classifier scores for you will only be considered if they are 60% or higher. And for each new classifier that is 60% or higher, the oldest valid score [one flagged "Y" or "F"] will be dropped by reflagging it "E". Then the 8 most current scores are considered for the average, dropping the lowest 2 by flagging them "F".

In your case, it sounds like you'll add valid scores of 83.7%, 74%, and 62.32%. The oldest valid scores that are dropped would be the 27.4482%, 47.5344%, and 43.1824%. Of the 8 most recent valid scores remaining, the 36.6666% on 08/05/2007 and the 61.9782% on 06/29/2008 would be flagged "F", and 6 scores ranging in value from that new 62.32% to the new 83.7% would be averaged, giving you a 74% average... assuming everything is as I assumed.

Basically, each month the classifiers you shoot are considered for inclusion in your classifier average, based on the date on which they were shot, and replacing the oldest valid score you have on the books. You can't "save" a high score from way back, just because it is high. It gets "pushed off the bus" by new scores coming in.

Actually, the fact that there is a floor below which classifier scores do not count helps to rachet your scores up, and improves your chances of getting an average high enough to make the next Class. If every score counted, every blown classifier would produce a tremendous drop in your average, especially for the top ranked shooters. As it is, making each higher Class requires producing a string of super scores, relative to your usual performance.

Edited March 24, 2009 by professor

[SA Friday]

guess it's all moot now. Shot a 62.32% on the classifier last Sat. That's what I get for not practicing my hero or zero philosophy on these things...

You said there were 4 scores to be added, but only mentioned the 83.7% and a 74%. Are the other two below 60%, so they are going to be flagged "C"?

Anyway, the fact that you've got some scores flagged "C" already means that in addition to your current B rank in Limited, you're got an "A" rank in another Division. That means Limited classifier scores for you will only be considered if they are 60% or higher. And for each new classifier that is 60% or higher, the oldest valid score [one flagged "Y" or "F"] will be dropped by reflagging it "E". Then the 8 most current scores are considered for the average, dropping the lowest 2 by flagging them "F".

In your case, it sounds like you'll add valid scores of 83.7%, 74%, and 62.32%. The oldest valid scores that are dropped would be the 27.4482%, 47.5344%, and 43.1824%. Of the 8 most recent valid scores remaining, the 36.6666% on 08/05/2007 and the 61.9782% on 06/29/2008 would be flagged "F", and 6 scores ranging in value from that new 62.32% to the new 83.7% would be averaged, giving you a 74% average... assuming everything is as I assumed.

Basically, each month the classifiers you shoot are considered for inclusion in your classifier average, based on the date on which they were shot, and replacing the oldest valid score you have on the books. You can't "save" a high score from way back, just because it is high. It gets "pushed off the bus" by new scores coming in.

Actually, the fact that there is a floor below which classifier scores do not count helps to rachet your scores up, and improves your chances of getting an average high enough to make the next Class. If every score counted, every blown classifier would produce a tremendous drop in your average, especially for the top ranked shooters. As it is, making each higher Class requires producing a string of super scores, relative to your usual performance.

Correct on all accounts. The crux was there was an old mid 80% score flagged "E" that if figured into the mix would have canx the 61.9% score and push me into A. I just don't know if it comes into play since it would push me up in class or not. The wording on if that is possible is very unclear. I'm pretty sure since the new 62% is in play now that it wont... But then again if it was, 62% would be below the 5% allowed and not count.

I knew I should have shot the hostage last weekend...

We'll see how it shakes out in the next posting. I'm inclined to think you are correct and the old "e" coded score won't come into play. So, that begs the question. Why keep that stuff on there then? Why not clean out the baffles per se and dump the old scores out of there?

Edited March 24, 2009 by SA Friday

[professor]

Unless you get caught in the first 6 snag and you have a higher classification in another division. Look up L-2598 revo and your head will explode.

Tom, I looked up your rankings, and see that you're now GM in Production, which means a classification of M in revo. Looking back and reconstructing the history, you apparently got ranked "A" in revo back in 2001, after shooting your first 4 classifiers for an average of 53.56%. You must have been a Master in some other Division at that time. So, only revo classifier scores of 75% or higher would be considered valid, because even then there were classifier scores higher than three of your first four classifiers that were flagged "C" and not considered valid. Even now, those first 4 classifiers from 2001 are still "valid" and "most recent". Then, in November 2002 you made GM in Production, which pushed you up to Master in the other Divisions where you were ranked. From that time on, your scores in revo would have to be at least 85% to count as a valid Revolver classifier. So that eliminated 3 scores of 82.0%, 82.1% and 82.65% from consideration, even though they were higher than any of your original 4 percentages.

However, even if those three 82% scores were considered valid, your revo average would only be about 83%. If it's any consolation, I know a GM Open shooter who still carries a 35% average for his revolver classifiers, even though he's classified as a Master in that division.

[professor]

We'll see how it shakes out in the next posting. I'm inclined to think you are correct and the old "e" coded score won't come into play. So, that begs the question. Why keep that stuff on there then? Why not clean out the baffles per se and dump the old scores out of there?

Just think of the historical value!

Actually, that old information might not be included in your current classification for a particular division, but it can explain how scores ended up being flagged "B" or "C" at various times in your shooting history. As an example, read my post about Tom's revo scoring.

As for that cryptic comment about "E" flagged scores, I was trying to come up with a scenario by which an "E" could be resurrected into valid status at a later time. What I came up with is this:

Consider a guy who is shooting classifiers at multiple clubs every month, and he's got an intermediate ranking, he's got a string of classifier scores that are pretty typical, in that they're up and down, with some valid, some too low to count [flagged "B" and "C"]. So there are a number of "E" flagged scores, because they were valid, but they were "pushed off the bus" by more recent scores.

Remember, too, that the recalculation algorithm considers which scores are valid based on the date on which they were shot. That means that you can have multiple classifiers during a month, and they are individually added into the mix to figure if the "best 6 of 8" pushes your average into the next Classification.

So this guy happens to shoot at a club that isn't as prompt as they ought to be in submitting their classifier results to USPSA headquarters. In fact, it's at least a month or two before these classifiers hit the system. In the interim, a particular score was deemed valid [flagged "Y" or "F"] and was subsequently pushed off the bus by more recent valid scores. Then these "old" classifiers show up, and they would have been valid had they been submitted in timely fashion. And their place in the chronological order predated a score that was recently flagged "E". In fact, the new scores were so good, that they resulted in bumping the shooter into a higher class, as of that earlier date. This forces a re-evaluation of the scores with later dates, including that high score coded "E". The re-evaluation includes checking to see if scores meet the new bracket of valid scores for the division the shooter is now enjoying.

For example, when a shooter goes from B class to A class, scores that count as valid change from a minimum of 55% to a minimum of 70% [A class]. Well, some of the more recent scores our shooter had on his list were valid as a B shooter, but are now coded "B" [for being below 70%]. Since they are no longer valid, they cannot push that higher and valid score off the bus, and it gets resurrected from "E" to either "Y" or "F", depending on how high it is compared to the others in the "most recent 8 scores" group.

Clear as mud, right?

Just wait until next month... let the classifier program do its think. I'll trust... but verify.

:roflol:

[SA Friday]

... the recalculation algorithm...

That right there narrows it down. If it takes an algorithm to figure this stuff out, how is a dumb ass cop supposed to figure it out?

[G-ManBart]

I feel your pain on the new 62% score. In the past couple of months I've messed up a classifier just enough to barely have it still count. One was 70.01%, another 73% with a freakin' mike and a nice 70.9%....those bumped off some decent scores in the 80s....ugh.

I'm pretty sure that older scores are shown because they might get reused if you move up. If they're really old and you have lots of classifiers on file it's not likely, but it could happen.

[SA Friday]

Well, I've acutally gone DOWN since this thread. After all the fuss, even Professor was wrong by 1/2 percent. That's closer than I've ever been, but still not exact. I was at 73.41%.

Here's the new math drama. I shot an 82% on a classifier last month that didn't post. SOOOOO, now what the hell is going to happen? The rest of the classifiers went in and I went down to 72.12%. So, when the missed classifier gets input, does the algorithm go back and recalculate based on the date of the classifier? Also, will this entry wait till the next month or will it be recalculated since is should have been entered last month?

Where's the white flag emoticon? I surrender.

[CHA-LEE]

Your classification average is based on the last 8 classifiers shot that meet or exceed the minimum % for your given class. For B class any classifier that is 55% or above “Counts” as a valid classification entry towards your last 8 valid classifiers. Listed below is a snapshot of the last 10 classifiers you have shot. Using the “Y” classifiers your current average is 72.12%. The two oldest Classifiers that currently count against your average are the 62.4410% and 76.7970%. Then your two lowest classifiers out of the 8 valid ones are the 61.1% and 62.3% ones. You can figure out which classifiers will count or not in the next recalculation of the classifiers if you understand that any run that is 55% - 100% (for B Class) will count as a valid classifier. Anything below that can be thrown out. So for any new classifiers that are above 62.4% will then be bump into your “Top 6” classifiers list and drop your 62.4% into an “F” state. Now the concern you have is that the next classifier to drop off after that is the 76.7% run which is giving your average a very good bump. If you have two classifiers that are sub 76.7% runs then that will drop off and your average will lower. Do you know if you have any 55% or above Classifiers that you have run since the last run of the report? If you list them by date then it will be easy to figure out what your average will turn out being RIGHT now. But as you shoot more classifiers the “Top 6” runs will continue to roll down and you will have to recalculate the average.

6/04/09 09HDC RIO GRANDE PRACTICAL SHOOTING CLUB Y 73.4000 6/10/09

5/24/09 99-10 CLEAR CREEK PRACTICAL SHOOTERS Y 70.9168 6/10/09

5/23/09 08-04 PRACTICAL SHOOTING ASSN OF COLORADO B 23.9229 6/10/09

4/25/09 99-55 PRACTICAL SHOOTING ASSN OF COLORADO Y 64.5247 5/07/09

3/21/09 99-24 S CHESTER CO PRACTICAL SHOOTERS F 62.3250 4/09/09

3/07/09 99-28 YORK IZAAK WALTON #67 Y 84.6390 3/25/09

3/07/09 99-33 YORK IZAAK WALTON #67 Y 76.7970 3/25/09

3/07/09 03-05 YORK IZAAK WALTON #67 F 61.1686 3/25/09

3/07/09 03-18 YORK IZAAK WALTON #67 Y 62.4410 3/25/09

1/24/09 99-62 PRACTICAL SHOOTING ASSN OF COLORADO E 55.8868 2/10/09

[CHA-LEE]

Basically RIGHT NOW, with no other classifiers to consider, you need to be in Hero or Zero mode. If you shot a single 80% classifier between now and the next run of the classification report, the 62.4% run will drop off and your average will bump to 75%. BUT..... If you have other classifiers that you have shot between then and now that are 55% or above, that is going to change the Top 6 run mix and everything will have to be recalculated. This is why it is important to know what classifier results you have had since this last report was run.

[Anubis]

Where's the white flag emoticon? I surrender.

Sorry, that one is only available on computers that connect from France...

[J-Ho]

Where's the white flag emoticon? I surrender.

Sorry, that one is only available on computers that connect from France...

AHHHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

reminds me of what a friend from France one said.

He had to go back to France to serve in the army. I asked him "What good is the French army?"

His reply was priceless "They teach us to run"