barrysuperhawk Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I have shot HM since before HM was cool, always with my trusty 590 and I can carry 35 rounds on/in the gun [9 in gun, 6 side saddle, 5 butt cuff and 15 Uncle Mikes Sling] When I run a vest, I have 18 additional rounds in elastic loops, and 10 more in a velcro pouch. With all that AMMO, I had never even come close to running out., in fact I usually used my sling as my loader ammo just to lighten the load. Sometimes I would just dump a box of ammo into an M60 ammo pouch, sling over my shoulder and call it good. Then Mossberg comes out with it's 930 SPX, and I figure I will try shooting an autoloader. That's when the problems started. First, I velcroed a 7 round elastic dealie to the side, and tried to attach the sling. The velco works well, but the sling does not. The problem was the sling swivel clamp moved the mag extention enough to jam it up, and I couldn't find a happy medium between loose and sloppy and tight and jammy, not good, so no sling. Then I discovered the rear swivel mount, being low profile such as it is, is not enough to keep a butt cuff in place, and it slides foreward on recoil catching my facial hair, not good, so no butt cuff. I am also trying to get away from using the vest because it is so blasted hot, not good, so no vest. So, now I am down to 15 rounds, and that is cutting things a little tight. So, last year, I invested in some Progressive Machine Shotgun 6 shell holders like all of the fast guys are using. I have tried and tried to get used to these things...but I have failed miserably. No fault of the product, it is 1000% better than the Californina plastic ones, but my fingers are just too fumbly unless I grab one at a time, and that defeats the point. Now, don't get me wrong, I have watched the youtube videos and practiced my butt off this winter, so much so that I had to "load" an extra 10 dummy SG shells to practice with. [spent primer, corncob media in the powder measure, Real wad and shot, fiocci orange hulls - that aren't used for anything else, and a soldering iron crimp seal] The problem is consistancy, I cannot seem to achieve it. About 1 time out of 5 everything goes right and the shells go in like they are supposed to. 4 out of 5 times it all goes to hell. I have thrown shells, I have injured myself, I have just plain missed the hole. Now, while it is comical to contemplate, the sad fact is that this in not a skill set to take to a match, because if you cannot do it in your living room, you won't be able to do it when the buzzer goes off.I guess it's possible that I am doing it wrong, but the videos I have watched are mostly showing off how fast one can go rather than going slow in order to teach [which I understand, but doesen't help me much]. So, now I am open to suggestions. Short of switching to a Sagia and dumping my butt into open... Do I sell the PM shellholders and try something else, do I soldier on and hope for an inspiration at a later date, or should I just go buy a bandoleer and resign myself to being slow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Yep The You-Tube stuff is speed only, last time I checked no-one really does those as training film clips. I know the one I did was in response to a Philipino shooter saying there is no way anyone can load 8 in under 8-9 seconds. Outside of Matt Burkett's shotgun video, I don't really know of any shotgun teaching film and I know loading wasn't really covered in that DVD. So if you know someone who does load weak hand well ask them what you are doing wrong. Maybe take a class, or do it a different way. KurtM Oh yea Choate Shell Caddies, not the California Comp works...I don't like those at all....and now someone will chime in with "ManMountain" holders being the best....bla...bla....bla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrysuperhawk Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Yep The You-Tube stuff is speed only, last time I checked no-one really does those as training film clips. I know the one I did was in response to a Philipino shooter saying there is no way anyone can load 8 in under 8-9 seconds. Outside of Matt Burkett's shotgun video, I don't really know of any shotgun teaching film and I know loading wasn't really covered in that DVD. So if you know someone who does load weak hand well ask them what you are doing wrong. Maybe take a class, or do it a different way. KurtMOh yea Choate Shell Caddies, not the California Comp works...I don't like those at all....and now someone will chime in with "ManMountain" holders being the best....bla...bla....bla. The problem I have is I haven't seen any of the local guys do this, only at big matches like Kentucky or CMMG, and then, in the middle of the match, isn't the right time to ask to be taught. One of the guys [Trapr. I think] gave me his phone number at CMMG last year, but I never found time to call, and he isn't local anyway. I have actually found it easier to do the on top of the shoulder load, but it's awkward also... As far as the Caddies, I won a gift cert for these, so these are what I have. One other guy I shoot with has a different kind and I thought they were Cali comp works, but I am probably wrong. they are plastic and have 2 round wire tabs to retain the shells fore and aft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I would isolate reloading into "the grab" and "the stuffing." It sounds like you are having problem with "the grab." I would just practice the snatching off of the carrier until you have that down pat. I'd grab three first then work myself to four at a time. Or just go ahead and start with four. If you don't have the shells consistently positioned in your hand your "stuffing" can become quite fumble prone. An oh yeah... Man Mountain holders kick azz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) For the guys who have the manual dexterity to grab multiple (3-4 at least) shells in their weak hand then feed them in while maintaining a shooting stance, this seems to be the fastest method. Its also the most "tactical" if this is important to you. I have been shooting practical shotgun since I was 17 (1982), and have always used the "turn and burn" method. For me, this is so ingrained that I don't care to invest the effort in anything different. Just lower the gun to waist level and invert it so the loading port in uppermost, cradle the gun at its balance point in your weak hand, then stuff shells one-at-a-time into the gun. For this technique, its best to use a belt, bandolier, sidesaddle and/or wrist rig where shells can be individually pulled using your strong hand. The key to speed is to get all the ammo as close as possible to the loading port so the hand movement is minimized. The 4/6 shell caddies work poorly with this technique, as the distance you hand moves is further. Just beware of the hot barrel - I hold the forend of my 11-87 with my fingertips so my weak hand does not actually touch the barrel. What I like about this technique is that it is easy to get competent with it, its pretty fumble proof (low disaster factor), and it allows me to mix different ammo types on demand (e.g. load 2 light shot, 1 slug then 2 heavy shot in sequence as needed) because I can SEE what shells I am loading as I go. There are lots of guys out there who are faster than me at loading, but not to the point where I think it makes a huge difference. Here is a video of me shooting and loading so you can get a feel for the technique I use (sorry its not very clear). I encourage you to give it a try. Edited March 7, 2009 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I use the 6 shell caddies for the most part. I can't get the hang of grabbing and loading 4, but 3 is okay. With the 6 shell caddy, I can grab 3 and 3- which makes more sense than 3 and 1 with the 4 shell caddy. I have 4- 6 shell caddies, 2- 4 shell caddies and 4- 2 shell Safariland holders ( I use those for slugs or specialty loads for the stage) for a total of 8 in the gun plus up to 40 on my belt. Any more than that and I wear a cuff or a bandolier. I do both strong hand and weak hand loading- depending on the stage. If it is a stupid high round count stage and I have to wear more than 3 caddies, I stage the shells pointing towards my belly button. I will load the shells on my left side with my weak hand, and the shells on my right with my strong hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Barry, ask when you see something, most people won't have a problem showing you in the middle of a match, just don't ask to follow along during the stage so you can see, or ask to repeat it during the stage, that can be annoying!!!!! I remember early on, asking Kurt to show me how quick he could be 8, but I asked him when he was in his hotel room and after he'd had a few drinks, so it made me feel much better, afterwards. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) Most all the action shotgun shooters in Europe and England, did the turn and burn right up until 2003. That was the year they were introduced to the sickness of Weak Hand Loading, Now it is hard to find one still doing the turn and burn. There are 4 things that people do wrong when they weak hand load. Relig covered one of them, the grab is important. How the shells are held right after the grab to index the first shell into the gun is the next. Holding the shells while putting them into the gun ( most times people end up with the shells to far back in their hand or to far out causing all sorts of "shell showers") and where their hand is in relation to the loading port is the final. I am yet again trying to get together with CompetitionDVD to do a loading/shotgun DVD (finally got the insurance thing figured out) and hopefully that will happen in the near future, but at the moment I can't say exactly when, BUT what it will cover is most forms of loading a shotgun...ie. weak hand, turn and burn, Cooley twist, Neth slide, and strong hand multi-shell loading.....AND how to OIL a gage! KurtM Edited March 8, 2009 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2osport Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Barry, ask when you see something, most people won't have a problem showing you in the middle of a match, just don't ask to follow along during the stage so you can see, or ask to repeat it during the stage, that can be annoying!!!!! I remember early on, asking Kurt to show me how quick he could be 8, but I asked him when he was in his hotel room and after he'd had a few drinks, so it made me feel much better, afterwards. trapr What were you doing with Kurt in a motel room after he had been drinking . Sounds to me like you may have been taking advantage of him Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRUBL Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Was there a wrist option? Thats what I use, and the belt, and the side of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I use shell caddies and forearm shell holders along with the sidesaddle on the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Didn't vote as my set-up was not an option. I use a 9rd side saddle and 4 rd belt shell caddies. Arm bandoleer when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sudden Death Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) My other way is using a arm band and PM carriers Edited March 8, 2009 by Sudden Death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trickpony Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Wonder if you could buy a T-Rig and get an attachement to hold a small person that could load the shotgun as you shoot??? That's what I need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Watersport, what happens in motel rooms at matches, stays in the motel room. I will say we have had a who's who list of folks stop in to our motel room wherever we are. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Yep The You-Tube stuff is speed only, last time I checked no-one really does those as training film clips. I know the one I did was in response to a Philipino shooter saying there is no way anyone can load 8 in under 8-9 seconds. Kurt, is there a current link to your video? When I was searching shotgun load techniques a while back none of the old links worked. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Ah Senor Malo-Chad, I would have no Idea. There were several on the German IPSC you tube, Some on the UKPSA site. There is one I sent to the Philippines and there is one posted by Bear1142...or something like that... What ever Erik Lund posts as here. I am no kind of computer guy and when I went to school we still programed by punch card in the old deck 10 system, and then.....upgraded to COBOL. I don't even know how to post a video! The only one I was personally involved in was the one sent to the guys in the Philippines, so the rest I really don't know. Sorry KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm not cool enough to have a video like Kurt and these other guys, so I'll just post their stuff Weakhand belt reload by senior miller Stronghand belt reload Army AMU segment on reloading That should about cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Weakhand belt reload by senior miller Gracias, eso es todo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lino Felarca, M.D. Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) Kurt and this great guy from the UK was kind enough to send me his video clips on weak hand reloading. I was able to "digest" and learn from Kurt's weakhand reloading and that's what i mainly do. I'm not tall and my hands are not big and can grab only 3 rounds at a time but i consider myself fast and happy with it. It's now posted in one of the threads here. Thanks again Kurt. BTW Kurt, when are you coming out with your DVD? I've been eagerly waiting for that one for a few years now? lino Edited March 9, 2009 by Lino Felarca, M.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbullgpd Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Arm bandoleer, side saddle, and off the belt if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Weakhand belt reload by senior miller Gracias, eso es todo. Kurt does not have a "weak" hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 One of you god-like shotty reloaders wanna give us a slo-mo vid demo of the reload, specifically the hand motions. I'm having a little trouble getting it down too... More fumbling than loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35WLN Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Ditto Ken Hebert. I am also curious about the position of the shells in the hand as Kurtm mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Watch the AMU video in my post above. Robbie Johnson covers all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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