What is going on with Steel Challenge in 2009 ?

[Flexmoney]

I wanted to start a new thread. It seems like there are some relavent questions and we should explore the answers.

PLEASE NOTE...this isn't meant to be a political/policy debate or complaint venue. It needs to stay as a simple discussion, information exchange and fact finding exercise...or it will be closed.

All of the info in italics below is pulled from the SC website's policies: http://steelchallenge.com/wp-content/uploa...ting-on-web.pdf

I assume the info is current. (Please advise if you know otherwise.)

- Beginning in 2009 clubs will have the option of affiliating with either organization for a

fee as determined by the USPSA Board of Directors or both at a discounted fee to be

determined.

Executive Director’s note: This policy will be applied on request, not

automatically. Clubs of either Association wishing to be affiliated in

the other must submit an application.

Looks like the new club fee is $65, and the re-affiliation fee is $50 (per yr). Plus...

- Activity Fees

All SCSA matches conducted by SCSA affiliated clubs will incur a $1.50 per shooter

activity fee.

+++++++++++++++++++++

- Dual Membership

Individual membership will be offered in both organizations. Annual membership dues

for each will be $40 with the option of adding the second organization for an additional

$20.

- Competitor Ranking

Executive Director’s note: Implementation of the ranking system is

dependent on software tools not yet available. SCSA is working hard

to create those tools, but the system will not be immediately

available.

Competitor ranking is NOT competitor classification...

[Flexmoney]

So, as a Club/Match Director, we are looking at $50 a year, plus &1.50 per shooter per match.

Let's say 8 matches a year and 20 shooters per match (probably fair to low numbers for a new/local SC club).

- 20 x $1.50 = $30... $30 x 8 = $240... $240 + $50 = $290

That works out to about 19% of what our local club would GROSS from a SC match (our local has a match fee of $10)

That 19% seems a bit steep.

But...that $1.50 "mission count" is going to give the shooters a ranking? But, that doesn't appear to be in place yet, as far as I know ??

To send in scores, the club needs to run the approved stages and used approved sized steel. Not all clubs have that. So, the Club/MD might be looking to have to purchase some new steel. There will be some recover time to offset the cost of that steel.

What does a Club/MD get for their money?

[Flexmoney]

As a shooter, to join SC, I can pay a flat fee of $40, or a $20 add on fee if I am already a member of USPSA.

As of this date, there are few regional/state matches. There isn't even penetration into the local match market. In any given state, we may see 1 or 2 clubs running SC matches.

While there is no "classification" system. There is a promised ranking system. I don't think it is online yet.

As an individual member, what do I get for the money?

[JFlowers]

Flex,

I think that today the answer is very little. But, there seem to be plans to change that and offer more USPSA-like competition management for your money. Is that good or bad? Don't know, only time will tell.

[shred]

We had a chat with Dave Thomas at Nationals last year and he said that clubs that shoot a mixture of types of stages need only send in mission count for actual steel matches, not any match they might hold; so if a club shoots GSSF-style matches most of the year, but throws in a Steel Challenge match or two, then you'd only have to pay mission count for those matches. That seems a little rare, but some do it that way. Of course Dave also said that was his understanding and he doesn't actually set the policy.

I know several local clubs that hold steel matches (there are 3 near here any given month) but have opted not to join, purely due to the lack of good answer to 'what do I get for my mission-count?'

The annual fee isn't the problem, they paid that for several years for equally little return, but it was the 'right thing to do' and a reasonable cost.

Now of course they aren't doing either so as to skip the hassle. USPSA hosed themselves on that one I think.

Have they sorted out how USPSA Life members can be 'dual' members of SCSA yet without getting a SCSA "life" as well?

[EricBudd]

So, to summarize

1. No incentive to clubs to affiliate

2. Current USPSA members have to pay extra for no real benefit

3. ???????

4. Profit!

[Flexmoney]

Let's not get too hasty. We operate as a not-for-profit entity. I don't think anybody in the organization is out to milk a buck out of the shooters where they can get it.

I do... hypothesize...that there is a motivation to try to get funds back as soon as possible to re-coup the cost of the venture. I believe might be a better course of action.

But, lets not get into speculation and emotion here...it serves no purpose and is outside the scope of this forum.

[Flexmoney]

I know several local clubs that hold steel matches (there are 3 near here any given month)...

Roy, your area is the only one I hear of that has more than 1 steel match. Do you know of others (perhaps SoCal?) ?

SC lacks market (match) penetration. Whereas USPSA has multiple matches in each state. I fear we are missing the boat by not leveraging our strength...an established network of clubs and shooters.

... but have opted not to join, purely due to the lack of good answer to 'what do I get for my mission-count?'

That seems like a perfectly reasonable response. There is no network. No scoring software. No classification/ranking system. Really...there is not much in the way of a brand (although I always liked the "Steel Challenge" name as a brand). It's just not built out in any manner.

Again, I think that is something that USPSA...with it's strength in it's network...could build out and develop. The old SC organization lacked the wherewithal to do that. USPSA can. They have the leverage/position to do so.

[dajarrel]

I think that the SC or USPSA or whoever holds the managerial reigns should consider holding down prices to a bare minimum for the first year or two. If they want clubs to become involved, they must realize that targets must be bought/built and none of that comes at low dollar amounts.

Although there are several target manufacturers, including some here on BE, USPSA might look into working out an introductory discount on steel with some of them. Other than the infrastucture of managing the matches/scoring/ranking (none of which are any small matter) the targets seem to be the big expense.....except for the fees quoted above which, to me, seem a bit steep this early in the game.

fwiw

dj

[EricBudd]

Flex,

I don't think that USPSA is planning to milk shooters. I just think that maybe there wasn't a great plan in place on what to do with Steel Challenge once the organization purchased it. OK, we have the match, now what? I enjoy shooting both USPSA and steel and I really do want the acquisition to be both successful and profitable. I'd like for there to be a compelling reason for clubs to affiliate - there just isn't one yet.

My suggestions would be:

1) An affiliated club is an affiliated club. Period. No reason for clubs to purchase two affiliations.

2) Membership is USPSA should be for both USPSA and Steel Challenge. One membership.

3) There should be a classification system (added value for both clubs and members). If there is no 'value added' there should not be activity fees.

4) If the Steel Challenge remains 1st come, 1st serve then activity fees for steel challenge matches should count toward USPSA National slots for sections/clubs.

Eric

[Jim Norman]

In NJ ew have two clubs I am aware of that hold regular steel matches. Old Bridge actually runs three a month, One Knockdown, One Steel Challenge and One what I call Carnival Steel. Set up 5 stages requiring 5 shots each, run then 5x, throw out the low, add'em up and we have a winner.

the K-D and the SC are money payback so the fees are higher than a normal club function. Central Jersey also runs a steelmatch, I can't comment more than that as I have not been able to make it out to one yet.

The big questions are What do we get for our money. As a USPSA Shooter, I get recognition of my shooting level at any USPSA match I go to. I have a classification in any division I choose to shoot in. With Steel, as far as I know, I have no incentive to join, I show up, I pay a match fee and I shoot. I shoot heads up because there is no classification system. The only gain I see is that the local club that joins can legally use the steel challenge stages. If they don't join up will the steel challenge police come around? Now,IF we get a classification system in place and do it soon, we have a different game. I truly believe that is the one thing that will make this work. People like grades and classifications. I kow the old martial artists started with a white belt to hold their robe closed and it progressively get dirtier and darker until it became a black belt, look araoud, peolpe here want to know where they stand and want to have steps along the way, call them waypoints or classes or what ever.

As for the mission count, until there is a classification system in place this is kind of hard to swallow. Club fees OK, allows you to use the stages and advertise the match as Steel Challenge, but shooter fees? I don't think so.

As for clubs that run one Steel Challenge match and three others, the only match I would expect to pay fees on would be the SC match, We run many other matches at our club, the only one we pay a fee for is the USPSA match, I can't see SC being different.

Jim

[AlamoShooter]

My club will be sending in the fee, for 8 years Alamo Sport Shooting Club was a Steel Challenge club even when steel was not so Cool. the club has its 27 year foundation in Steel Challenge type stages. up until 2000 the club held its Independent footing with stubborn pride. over that 8 years up to last year I only got 2 calls from shooter wanting to come because of the affliction listing. STILL! I felt the monies paid for affiliation was well spent. It helped to tie the bond in the distance between clubs and events. We had Options that stayed open.

The Club fees I paid over 8 years did not have any hard proof of return for investment, But steel is big now, so even a small thing can help.

I am going to pay the Club fee for the next three years as an investment for shooters not yet owning a gun.

Like Shred said of the past, It was The Rite thing to do

I will not have to provide a monthly statement until I put on my Steel Challenge only events this summer just before the world shoot when we try to include 7 to 8 stages

Jamie Foote

[Bear23]

I run our local USPSA club. We are under a larger umbrella non profit. I pay nothing to them and am able to keep our fees strictly to our uspsa club. I do make a yearly donation for the insurance.

I see no reason why we need to pay and additional 1.50$ per shooter and 50$ reup fee every year to USPSA for the SC. SC is USPSA........same organization.

I believe a 50$ for USPSA plus the Actvity fees are fine for USPSA, maybe add another 50 annually for SC,since they do put out a magazine. but no Activity fees. I don't agree with getting double gouged.

I pay my activity fees for uspsa, but don't get any slots for nationals as the count is way too high. I earned 287 points in limited for our club, but limited will need at least 800 to get a slot...worthless system.

[shred]

I know several local clubs that hold steel matches (there are 3 near here any given month)...

Roy, your area is the only one I hear of that has more than 1 steel match. Do you know of others (perhaps SoCal?) ?

SC lacks market (match) penetration. Whereas USPSA has multiple matches in each state. I fear we are missing the boat by not leveraging our strength...an established network of clubs and shooters.

Actually I forgot, there are four, more or less-- one almost purely SC (though trying some Pro-Am type stages), hosted by the ALSPPC USPSA club. I end up MD-ing most of those. One somewhat-SC run by a great old lady that just decided one day to start holding steel matches and went out and bought the steel. AlamoShooter runs the 3rd, which is an always entertaining mixture, and Ted Bonnet is running his Handgunner-like man-on-man shootoff.

Interestingly, about half the participants in the steel matches don't shoot IPSC or IDPA for whatever reason. How they found out about it varies, but is usually some combination of friends that already shoot it, happening across a match on the range, or happening across a web site as near as I can tell. I'd love USPSA to use some of that marketing might to recruit more shooters, but well, I've barely even seen it with USPSA's core competency; IPSC.

... but have opted not to join, purely due to the lack of good answer to 'what do I get for my mission-count?'

That seems like a perfectly reasonable response. There is no network. No scoring software. No classification/ranking system. Really...there is not much in the way of a brand (although I always liked the "Steel Challenge" name as a brand). It's just not built out in any manner.

Again, I think that is something that USPSA...with it's strength in it's network...could build out and develop. The old SC organization lacked the wherewithal to do that. USPSA can. They have the leverage/position to do so.

I think a lot of it is that it appeared USPSA came in and said "we own the SC now and everything associated with it" (whether they meant it like that or not). That rubbed a lot of those people that had been holding matches for years very much the wrong way. Heck, until about 5 years ago we used the very same steel targets Chip McCormick practiced on to win the SC in 1986 & '88. We then went out and bought with our own money a full replacement set which we are trying to pay off.

To have somebody come in and say "you have to pay us to keep doing what you've been doing on your own for 20 years when we wouldn't even give you the time of day" (count the number of steel challenge articles in Front Sight before 2008... on one hand).... pissed people off. There were a lot of irritated steel shooters at the last SC. If the prize table drops any more (note how they use the 2007 $ figure.. 2008 was nowhere near that for whatever reason), I bet a number of them will find something else do to that isn't ponying up $275 for an entry.

IMO, USPSA should have leveraged the heck out of steel as a 'gateway drug' to IPSC... cheap, low barrier to entry, can be shot with a .22, little movement, no reloads.. what's not to like for getting new shooters hooked on action shooting? Make it automatically 'something else' a club can do.. none of the joint/separate membership/mission-count/affiliation frou-frou (yeah, I know they're trying it with the Boy Sprouts or whatever, but I don't get how that doesn't have a .22 division either).

[Rob Boudrie]

I've been involved in some the the prep for the 2009 season, so here are my comments:

1. USPSA has secured the rights to a high quality, Windows based Steel Challenge scoring program (the same one used to score the 2008 SC). I have worked with the developer on data transfer protocols, and we have a single file results upload that transfers all details of match results (every time, every stage - not just aggregates to the USPSA database). If you look at the results for the 2008 Steel Challenge at www.steelchallenge.com, you will be viewing results from the on-line database populated directly from this scoring program. One of the reasons is has taken so long to get the scoring program ready for release is the need for it to function as part of a integrated system that ties in directly with a results/standings database. We also needed changes to support SCSA specific requirements such as membership numbers and a library of standard stages. We weren't going to fall into the trap of accepting a program that generated text files that could be used to easily post results, but did not have the structure needed for good data flow management.
   
2. USPSA HQ is currently working on preparing the program for release (install issues, etc.) I don't have a date, but I can say with certainty that Dave Thomas considers this a very high priority project, and I have confidence it will be ready for the 2009 season that will soon be starting.
   
3. The ranking system is not in place, but this is largely a chicken and egg situation. Once we have a few matches in the system, I'll be able to write whatever sort of ranking system USPSA wants in a very short period of time - and use all data submitted from the new scoring program (you can be assured matches you submit using the new scoring program will go into the ranking system even if it is not yet released).
   
4. The USPSA classification system is run on computers at the corporate megaplex in Sedro Woolley and uploaded to the web once a month. The standings will be calculated directly on the server (with backup data transmitted to Sedro), so I expect the updates to be more frequent than once a month (most likley, they will be updated on a daily basis if any new match results have been uploaded)
   

USPSA is very aware of the need to give members, and clubs, value for their mission count. The reality of the situation is that "doing it right" was not a simple task. We need all the ducks in a row - Scoring Program, database structure, upload procedure, mission count payment/management system, etc.

[Dnaughtin]

I know several local clubs that hold steel matches (there are 3 near here any given month)...

Roy, your area is the only one I hear of that has more than 1 steel match. Do you know of others (perhaps SoCal?) ?

SC lacks market (match) penetration. Whereas USPSA has multiple matches in each state. I fear we are missing the boat by not leveraging our strength...an established network of clubs and shooters.

... but have opted not to join, purely due to the lack of good answer to 'what do I get for my mission-count?'

That seems like a perfectly reasonable response. There is no network. No scoring software. No classification/ranking system. Really...there is not much in the way of a brand (although I always liked the "Steel Challenge" name as a brand). It's just not built out in any manner.

Again, I think that is something that USPSA...with it's strength in it's network...could build out and develop. The old SC organization lacked the wherewithal to do that. USPSA can. They have the leverage/position to do so.

[Dnaughtin]

Flex

I'm the match director for our clubs monthly steel match. We have more than 30 shooters for each match at 10$ each. The only way the club board will join SC is if I can convince them that there is some bennifit to the members. One that comes to mind is a discount package deal on regulation steel from SC so I can get rid of the junk we currently shoot monthly.

With out a good classification system and computer scoring software it doesn't appear to be an argument that I can convincingly make.

[jbullgpd]

Since USPSA bought the rights to SC, thats the way I understand it correct me if I'm wrong, why cant it just be all one happy family? If you are a member of one then you are of both because its one in the same. Just a different kind of match like 3 gun/multigun is. Just My 2 cents. Its own set of rules under USPSA like rules for shotgun/rifle etc.

I know we are gonna shoot steel matches but we have seen no incentive to pay the fee so I don't think we are.

Edited March 3, 2009 by jbullgpd

[Flexmoney]

Since USPSA bought the rights to SC, thats the way I understand it correct me if I'm wrong, why cant it just be all one happy family? If you are a member of one then you are of both because its one in the same. Just a different kind of match like 3 gun/multigun is. Just My 2 cents. Its own set of rules under USPSA like rules for shotgun/rifle etc.

I know we are gonna shoot steel matches but we have seen no incentive to pay the fee so I don't think we are.

Somewhere...we got into the idea that it (SC) ought to be run like as a stand alone division. You know...like GM or AIG (sorry...but somebody was gonna say that).

That is a flawed stategy...as SC has no stand alone strength, other than it main match. And, that stategy doesn't leverage the strengths that USPSA enjoys...it's network of clubs and shooters.

The strategy ought to be "value added" (to the membership) and market penetration...IMO.

[Sam]

Money issues aside, there are a lot of nice things about steel challenge style shooting. It has great spectator appeal. Physical attributes and conditioning are less of a factor in match performance. It's much less intimidating for first time competitors than a field course. I'm glad USPSA bought the rights.

And shooting at nice square and round steel plates looks much more PC than wacking targets with a head!

(Sorry, had to throw that one in there given the current social climate.)

[mikegot38]

I shot Steel Challenge at Old Bridge with Jim last year and have shot their June match for a number of years. Fine match. I have not been able to make their monthy matches.

I also shoot in the PA Steel Shooters League which is 5 soon to be 7 Eastern PA clubs that hold steel matches. We shoot for a year end prize table with classification of A-B-C. We should probably add a Master Class at least.

We can use Steel Challenge stages at our match if we choose as long as we do not call them Steel Challenge stages. Sort of what Old Bridge did before the great folks there affiliated their fine matches with Steel Challenge last year.

My point after all this rambling is that right now, there is no reason to affiliate because there is really nothing in it for the club. Also, for many of the 50-75 shooters that shoot the PA Steel League each week , the perception is that the Steel Challenge stages would be to difficult and a lot of the ordinary every day club shooter would not come back.

Mike

[mpeltier]

I am still waiting for someone to post a tangible return for the club/shooter. What is in it for them/us on the local level?

We already use a scoring system that works.

We see who ranks where when the scores are posted.

The only benefactor (as opposed to profeteer, as we know this would not be for profit) to this seems to be USPSA.

[Steve J]

INDIVIDUAL DUAL MEMBERSHIP

I selected the dual membership option when I renewed my USPSA membership this month. I just received my USPSA renewal in the mail. There was no mention of the dual membership or anything from the SCSA.

Has anyone used this option on the USPSA site? Does the SCSA membership stuff come separately directly from SCSA?

What's the deal? No card, no membership number, no patch? Nada?

[DaninSC]

Steve J - I just joined SC this year, when my USPSA membership came due. Since I wasn't sure how the 'renewal' would work along with signing up for SC, I called and got it straight over the phone. Very easy and quick. I got the new member packet, number, patch, etc. I'll have to watch the renewal next year to see what I get.

Flex - What our club is getting for the money is this:

We were a small IDPA-only club (30-40 members) holding one match a month. I got hooked on SC, shooting at another local club, and suggested getting involved. In August of 2009 we started with about $1500 in the treasury and some loans from a few club members and contacted Karl at GT Targets (BE forum vendor). He got us a 1/2 set of targets in less than 2 weeks and we started holding matches.

The first match had more shooters than many of our IDPA matches had seen. We had shooters from throughout the state and in January this year we had one shooter travel 4 hours from Virginia just to shoot steel. We have recouped the price of the targets and SC now contributes to range maintenance expenses ($10 match fee) after we pay range fees and the SC activity fee.

There has been enough interest in SC to warrant the formation of a Scholastic Steel Challenge team and we are now including Scholastic SC-specific matches (all 4 of the required stages for SSC) designed to emphasize participation by our young shooters. All of our members shoot these matches, but it's nice to see an entire squad of 12-20 yr old shooters competing together.

This month we held our first (member-only) multi-gun match as a trial. We're using USPSA rules and, as a result, I see the club affiliating with USPSA in the near future to hold official matches in that venue (with the possibility of a USPSA handgun match down the road).

There have already been several of our members branch out into USPSA - something almost unheard of before this 'new' sport arrived to our club.

We are now holding 2 official matches per month with the possibility of a third down the road, each with the same participation we had as a single-match club in the past. We're getting new shooters involved in the shooting sports, a youth shooting program we didn't have previously, and a growing interest into branching out to other shooting ventures for our little club. Shortly after we began matches, a third club in our state announced SC matches and has also started a Scholastic SC team, so interest is growing despite the lack of perceived "what-do-I-get-for-my-money?"

I think our underlying reason for affiliating was "it's the right thing to do", but there sure have been some positive changes since we took the plunge. May have been a naive attitude, but it's working!

[gng4life]

INDIVIDUAL DUAL MEMBERSHIP

I selected the dual membership option when I renewed my USPSA membership this month. I just received my USPSA renewal in the mail. There was no mention of the dual membership or anything from the SCSA.

Has anyone used this option on the USPSA site? Does the SCSA membership stuff come separately directly from SCSA?

What's the deal? No card, no membership number, no patch? Nada?

I received a patch, sticker, card, and letter when I joined SC but I did as a life member. That shouldn't make a difference but you should have at least received a card. Call up Kim at SC and ask her about it. The SC folks and USPSA folks all sit in the same office so it seems like it should have all come together but I really can't speak for them.

I'm sure they will take care of you, just give them a call or email. Take care...