redwoods Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I want to buy a new AR15 SBR with an 11.5" barrel. Where can I buy one? I know about the $200 transfer tax/fee. My other question is....can I build one myself. And if I can, do I buy an already registered lower or can I apply to register any lower? Thanks, Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I would do the paperwork on a new stripped lower Then add the parts later Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwoods Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Could I do the paperwork on one of your lowers? Could I get a lower and upper matching set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I built a couple. If I had to do it again, I'd find a manufacturer that could register it for me so I don't have to engrave my name, city and state on the lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Could I do the paperwork on one of your lowers? Could I get a lower and upper matching set? You can do it on any lower...then that lower is forever a SBR If I reg. a receiver...I pay the $200.00...If I sell it to you, you pay the $200 again My buddy has done several of them lately...PM me if you want to talk to him Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwoods Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 I built a couple. If I had to do it again, I'd find a manufacturer that could register it for me so I don't have to engrave my name, city and state on the lower. Thats the problem...finding a manufacturer who is selling them. I guess I could order one and wait a year. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I've talked to several manufacturers lately that tell me ATF is now requiring the gun to be complete, not just SBR registering a Stripped lower. Doesn't make any sense to me other than the requirement for listing the barrel length on the application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Randy, Call your local ATF ask them for a form 1 ( If I remember right). I'm not sure about your local office, but mine is pretty helpful. Your being a LEO might make him a little more helpful as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dstroyed Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) I've talked to several manufacturers lately that tell me ATF is now requiring the gun to be complete, not just SBR registering a Stripped lower. Doesn't make any sense to me other than the requirement for listing the barrel length on the application. A local reputable Class III dealer said the same thing, I have to buy complete or build. Only thing is he didn’t have anything available. So I built one from a “multi” stamped POF lower, had it engraved and bought a 12” upper. When i say built i bought a complete lower and upper. I’m in the waiting stag now, processed my paper work, ATF cashed my check just before X-Mas 2008. I have right at $2000 in mine total, upper, lower, engraving, shipping for engraving, $200 for Govt. I went with a trust so i didn't have to deal with the loal officials and so i didn't have to have my personal name on the lower. So far it has been pretty easy painless other than spending the cash. Hopefully everything goes through without error. Edited February 14, 2009 by dstroyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) You can do it on any lower...then that lower is forever a SBR Actually, its the MG which is "once a MG, always a MG". Dan P (who used to work for the ATFs NFA Branch)From AR15.com wrote: Man this subject is brought up a lot.Tony K is giving the recommended procedure to keep everyone happy and have no one adding layers of tinfoil to their head. The dude bashing Tony's opinion must be pretty new to this forum. You can pretty much take what Tony says/recommends to the bank. With that being said, all NFA weapons, except for machine guns, are required to be in NFA configuration to be an NFA weapon. Barrel/overall length for SBR/SBS/AOW. Bore for DD. NFA should not be approving forms for SBR/SBS without a full description of the caliber, barrel, and overall lengths being listed on the form. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but it shouldn't be. I see ads for people selling "SBR" registered lowers. Technically there can't be such a thing, as the lower is not an SBR. If you remove your short barrel and/or put a 16"+ barrel on your SBR, you can legally sell it as a Title I weapon. No notification to NFA is required by law. If you are selling it to someone you don't know, I would personally sell it with a signed bill of sale, that the purchaser signs, indicating the configuration it was sold in. This should protect you if the buyer ends up getting caught with a short barrel and no NFA Form. If someone is caught with it in non-NFA configuration, as in getting arrested for a some other offense, no one can be prosecuted for transferrring an NFA weapon - when it is not an NFA weapon. No jury is going to convict for a rifle that has over a 16" barrel or 26" overall when they shown the definition of an SBR. There is no legal requirement stating you HAVE to notify the NFA of permanent change to Title I status. If the new buyer decides to file an ATF Form 1, to make the lower an SBR again, the weapon would not be "already registered" because the new owner would be the "maker" and would have to engrave the lower as required by law. The serial number would be in the NFRTR from the previous registration, but it would not be the same "maker" of the weapon. For those that don't know, records are never REMOVED from the NFRTR anyway. They are just modified to show the current configuration of the weapon. If you have an NFA registered SBR, and want to travel to another state, or a state that does not allow SBRs, you can install a full length upper and travel anywhere you legally can with a Title I rifle. It does not matter what the NFA registered weapon was, because the 16"+ upper istalled on the weapon makes it a Title I weapon. I think that covered most of the issues brought up in this thread. As Tony said, and I agree with, the recommended procedure is to notify NFA Branch in writing of the conversion back to Title I status and wait for them to respond in writing that it was done. This covers everyone, and saves some aluminum resources. Dan. I mentioned this in a previous thread about the same topic, but I am pretty sure there will be some publication from ATF on this specific topic in the not-so-distant future - do to the many questions they receive on this very topic. AR15 thread Edited February 14, 2009 by Cardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 The easiest and quickest is to make it yourself on a Form 1. The tax is the same - $200 - and you don't have to wait for the transfer from the manufacturer to the dealer. Also, you get EXACTLY what you want. If you don't want to engrave your lower with your name/city/state, it is OK to stamp or engrave either the barrel or the upper receiver instead. Here is mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer_G Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Colt factory 11.5"s are available in the forum of the LE6933, which is the semi-auto/SBR version of the "M4 Commando". Noveske and CMMG both offer factory complete SBRs. And, if I am remembering correctly both LWRC and POF offer SBRs, if you want piston operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I'd go with a POF or a Larue. I spent a day in a carbine class with a shorty POF (can't remember the exact barrel length). I worked great and was accurate to boot. I would not go competing with one though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyking Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 The easiest and quickest is to make it yourself on a Form 1. The tax is the same - $200 - and you don't have to wait for the transfer from the manufacturer to the dealer. Also, you get EXACTLY what you want. If you don't want to engrave your lower with your name/city/state, it is OK to stamp or engrave either the barrel or the upper receiver instead. Here is mine: All, I am brand new to this forum, doing some research on the specific's of doing an SBR on a CavArms lower. At risk of rubbing someone's fur the wrong way...StealthyBlagga, can you provide me a link to any kind of ATF document verifying your statement "If you don't want to engrave your lower with your name/city/state, it is OK to stamp or engrave either the barrel or the upper receiver instead."? I do believe that is 100% incorrect and I would like to see anything you have that would confirm it. If you go to Orion Arms Engraving (http://orion-arms.com/new/content/view/26/84/) I see a lot of places for AR15's to be engraved for SBR, but upper receiver/barrel is not one of them. I could cite some other examples of conflicting information on this topic, but your statement is pretty definitive. Hey, anybody can make a mistake. I just want to make sure and get this thread confirmed or updated ASAP so nobody gets into any trouble. Sorry to kick over an ant hill if I'm wrong here... And StealthyBlagga - that is a great looking AR you have there. Regards, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbear_98 Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 (edited) The easiest and quickest is to make it yourself on a Form 1. The tax is the same - $200 - and you don't have to wait for the transfer from the manufacturer to the dealer. Also, you get EXACTLY what you want. If you don't want to engrave your lower with your name/city/state, it is OK to stamp or engrave either the barrel or the upper receiver instead. Here is mine: All, I am brand new to this forum, doing some research on the specific's of doing an SBR on a CavArms lower. At risk of rubbing someone's fur the wrong way...StealthyBlagga, can you provide me a link to any kind of ATF document verifying your statement "If you don't want to engrave your lower with your name/city/state, it is OK to stamp or engrave either the barrel or the upper receiver instead."? I do believe that is 100% incorrect and I would like to see anything you have that would confirm it. If you go to Orion Arms Engraving (http://orion-arms.com/new/content/view/26/84/) I see a lot of places for AR15's to be engraved for SBR, but upper receiver/barrel is not one of them. I could cite some other examples of conflicting information on this topic, but your statement is pretty definitive. Hey, anybody can make a mistake. I just want to make sure and get this thread confirmed or updated ASAP so nobody gets into any trouble. Sorry to kick over an ant hill if I'm wrong here... And StealthyBlagga - that is a great looking AR you have there. Regards, Phil Explains what to do and sales weapons http://www.class3weapons.com/class_3_faq_c..._3_weapons.html Explains what to do, and has all the forms to do it with. http://www.titleii.com/TitleII.com/Welcome.html If your gonna build it yourself. Buy a lower, fill out and send off your form 1, then take your lower and get it engraved. If your gonna buy one already registered, the dealer will fill out a form 4 and wait for your paper work to come back. When it does and it is approved, then you go get your lower, rifle. Jerome ETA; Good looking piece StealthyBlagga! Edited April 4, 2009 by bigbear_98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I've talked to several manufacturers lately that tell me ATF is now requiring the gun to be complete, not just SBR registering a Stripped lower. Doesn't make any sense to me other than the requirement for listing the barrel length on the application. Per federal law if it doesn't have a stock and a barrel it isn't a rifle...this is the same reason receivers are now listed as "others" on 4473s. They are just enforcing the 1968 Gun Control Act fully and consistently (local IOIs had different interpretations before). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 From what I was told you register it in the configuration you are planning to build it in. When the form comes back then you are free to build it in that configuration. If you put another barrel length, different caliber upper it is ok as long as the gun can be put back in the original form on the paperwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Rules for manufacturers are different than individuals. For a manufacturer, we build it in that configuration, and fax the Form 2 to NFA branch. There is no approval process, we can make as many as we want to. If it doesn't have a short barrel on it, the feature that makes it a short barrelled rifle, the manufacturer shouldn't register it as an SBR. An individual has to wait for approval, so your Form 1 will include the information of what it will be, where as a manufacturers form 2 lists what the gun is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TISCHLJ Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Building or buying, yo'ull probably have to wait on parts anyway. I like the build- all the good parts just like you want it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbear_98 Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 So OP, what did you decide to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwoods Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I ended up buying an AR15 from a semi local class III dealer. He did not have them for a while but finally got some in and I bought one. I don't have it yet but it is waiting for me. Sabre Defence 10.5" SBR. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I would not go competing with one though! As long as you can make the power factor, they're great for club matches or other matches that feature short range courses. At extended distances, the slower bullets from the shorter barrels would drop off a bit faster. They are a bit handier when maneuvering around walls or going through doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyking Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 All, Thanks for the follow up and I do owe you a mea culpa! I got in touch with a couple of references and they did indeed clarify my engraving question. Thanks again for the information as I had read conflicting details in a number of places. You guys rock. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Redwood, just over the hll from you in Dumont Colorado is a guy Named Alan Samuel. He is the guy who runs machineguntours.com and is the premeir class 3 guy in Colorado. Give Alan a ring and he can tell you EXACTLY what you need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 One disadvantage to buying an already made / registered gun is that you have to wait for the paperwork to clear before you can use it. If you start with a pistol lower or a virgin lower, you can build the gun you want, but with a pistol buffer tube. You can then go play with it and do load development while waiting on the paperwork to come back. Once approved, pull off the pistol buffer tube, and install your favorite flavor of buttstock. Also, when you start getting multiple shorty uppers (you know you will), getting another "pistol" lower gives your spare uppers somewhere to live without causing any legal problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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