Best open Red Dot Sight

[Neomet]

I got one of Eric's RHT mounts today. They are kind of pricey, especially with the current exchange rate. But I prefer the look of the black mount.

Nice looking set up. Has someone been lightening their slide?????

[XRe]

Nice looking set up. Has someone been lightening their slide?????

I believe Paul was previously using a Doctor or JPoint or something...

Steve Z was kind enough to let me fondle his at the DTC in the safe area. A couple of things occurred to me... I used to shoot a tube scope (larger Aimpoint). This one seems pretty tiny, and all the crap in my peripheral was distracting, so this is not my cup of tea. However, the dot is super bright and crisp, even at 4 MOA, though I'd still like the traditional Aimpoint 7 MOA dot on my race gun (maybe with some market pressure...). Saul's mount looks like the way to go, though, as it gets the big black knob out of your way...

I'll stick with my C-More for now, especially since its been... corrected...

[Tzygä]

Saul Kirsch just bought out a new mount for the Micro... It's on the Double-Alpha web-site

hmmmm

I tried Saul Kirsch's mount it was great but Aimpoint Micro wasn't for me. I think dot was too small and lens was too small also. So I am back with C-more.

[want2race]

I don't know why Aimpoint is only making a 4moa dot in the Micro.

I finally shot my open gun project, with a Comp XD optic, in a match. We had some hard cover, head shots, mini poppers, swingers and a star. It was the first time I'd shot any open gun in a match. The tube optic was so easy to use. POA = POI. I have the tube mounted VERY close to the slide there is no need to hold over for closer targets. I loved it. Honestly, I didn't even notice the tube. Just watched the dot bounce.

Close to the slide:

Edited April 15, 2009 by want2race

[Zerwas]

I guess it's all in what a person likes, but I prefer the smaller dot size to a larger one. The 4moa dot in the micro is easy to pick up on the draw, doesn't wash out in bright sunny conditions and is nice and sharp for the longer range small steel/targets with hard cover/no shoots etc... Going to a larger dot doesn't make any sense to me. Covering up more of a target than what is needed isn't a good thing in my mind. But again, it is a personal preferrence thing which I understand.

My Aimpoint Micro has been bullet proof, and I really like this set up. To me. the only thing I see when I transition from target to target when actually shooting is the dot. The whole Aimpoint case seems to disappear when I pay attention to what I'm supposed to be paying attention too.

[larry cazes]

To me. the only thing I see when I transition from target to target when actually shooting is the dot. The whole Aimpoint case seems to disappear when I pay attention to what I'm supposed to be paying attention too.

I have been shooting with tube scopes for years and with a target focus and both eyes open, I dont see the scope body at all, just the target and the dot. For various reasons I prefer the MC mount design but it is great to see new mounts being developed for this sight.

[XRe]

Going to a larger dot doesn't make any sense to me. Covering up more of a target than what is needed isn't a good thing in my mind. But again, it is a personal preferrence thing which I understand.

I've done some nosing around in the science and biology behind the way the eyes work. There's actually a pretty close correlation between the size and brightness of the dot, the speed of the gun's movement, and your ability to consistently and accurately call shots. Your eyes don't see everything that's put in front of them - while the retinas are constantly exposed to incoming light, it takes time for the various chemical reactions to occur, and nervous system transmissions to take place. So, your eyes don't see in discrete frames, like a movie, but they don't literally see constant motion, either... A lot of biological factors fall into this - state of awareness, level of mental arousal, etc - usually, the more keyed up you are (survival stress), the more you see.

What it boils down to is - depending on your eyes, your brain, etc, too small of a dot size or too dim of a dot will make it hard to consistently and accurately call your shots, as you will not actually see the dot lift, you will only see the motion your brain puts together off of what your eyes were able to construct. In other words, you'll see an illusion of where the dot actually was. The gun moves quickly enough to cause that to happen.

Dot brightness is limited by the characteristics of the scope - if the dot is flared, its useless, and if it can't go bright enough, its also useless. A large dot can be utilized accurately - its much like a large front sight on an iron sight gun. It can look intimidating on tight shots, but if the gun is sighted in correctly, its no big deal.

In addition, too small of a dot may have "user interface" issues - it can be hard to pick up on the target in a useful way. Otherwise, we'd all be out looking for really bright 1 MOA dots, wouldn't we? Again, personal preference and body specifics will play into what constitutes "too small".

The other factor that plays into this is that too large of a dot can play other games with you. I can shoot a large dot accurately, and calling shots with it is a breeze. However, my brain tends to see this large, bright, fat orb on brown and somehow decides its in the A-zone - I don't shoot penalties with it, but I leak points all over the place.

My preference, personally, is for a 6 MOA dot, but since I can't seem to get one bright enough in a C-More, I settle for an 8 MOA, which (for me) seems to be a good balance. 4 causes me to actually squint at the dot, and is too small for me to use efficiently. 12 definitely causes the "spray" reaction I mentioned above. Aimpoint's 10 always seemed to be OK... the 7 would be a nice balance for me, too. Even in the Aimpoint, the 4 just makes me uncomfortable, so...

And that's my treatise on dot size ergonomics...

[reneet]

I prefer the C-More. Run one on my STI 38 Super and both of my S&W 41 barrels.

[JThompson]

Going to a larger dot doesn't make any sense to me. Covering up more of a target than what is needed isn't a good thing in my mind. But again, it is a personal preferrence thing which I understand.

I've done some nosing around in the science and biology behind the way the eyes work. There's actually a pretty close correlation between the size and brightness of the dot, the speed of the gun's movement, and your ability to consistently and accurately call shots. Your eyes don't see everything that's put in front of them - while the retinas are constantly exposed to incoming light, it takes time for the various chemical reactions to occur, and nervous system transmissions to take place. So, your eyes don't see in discrete frames, like a movie, but they don't literally see constant motion, either... A lot of biological factors fall into this - state of awareness, level of mental arousal, etc - usually, the more keyed up you are (survival stress), the more you see.

What it boils down to is - depending on your eyes, your brain, etc, too small of a dot size or too dim of a dot will make it hard to consistently and accurately call your shots, as you will not actually see the dot lift, you will only see the motion your brain puts together off of what your eyes were able to construct. In other words, you'll see an illusion of where the dot actually was. The gun moves quickly enough to cause that to happen.

Dot brightness is limited by the characteristics of the scope - if the dot is flared, its useless, and if it can't go bright enough, its also useless. A large dot can be utilized accurately - its much like a large front sight on an iron sight gun. It can look intimidating on tight shots, but if the gun is sighted in correctly, its no big deal.

In addition, too small of a dot may have "user interface" issues - it can be hard to pick up on the target in a useful way. Otherwise, we'd all be out looking for really bright 1 MOA dots, wouldn't we? Again, personal preference and body specifics will play into what constitutes "too small".

The other factor that plays into this is that too large of a dot can play other games with you. I can shoot a large dot accurately, and calling shots with it is a breeze. However, my brain tends to see this large, bright, fat orb on brown and somehow decides its in the A-zone - I don't shoot penalties with it, but I leak points all over the place.

My preference, personally, is for a 6 MOA dot, but since I can't seem to get one bright enough in a C-More, I settle for an 8 MOA, which (for me) seems to be a good balance. 4 causes me to actually squint at the dot, and is too small for me to use efficiently. 12 definitely causes the "spray" reaction I mentioned above. Aimpoint's 10 always seemed to be OK... the 7 would be a nice balance for me, too. Even in the Aimpoint, the 4 just makes me uncomfortable, so...

And that's my treatise on dot size ergonomics...

Nicely said Dave...

I would add one more tidbit to it. I run a 6 inside because of the lower light and a 10 outside. It's easier to find... if you have to pull your vision back to confirm your dot you have lost time. The bigger dot helps disern lens flair from the dot outside. I'm also going to try the Limcat Anti-glare device.

[Tzygä]

It's easier to find... if you have to pull your vision back to confirm your dot you have lost time.

That's exactly what I did with Micro. It is great sight but unfortunately it didn't work for me.

[Flexmoney]

Dave covered some great points.

I don't know that the dot sizes being talked about here would hamper precision much at any of the distances we likely see?

(edit to add: Our A-zone is ~ 6x11 inches)

10moa

1.5in at 15y

2.5in at 25y

8moa

1.2in at 15y

2.0in at 25y

6moa

0.9in at 15y

1.5in at 25y

4moa

0.6in at 15y

1.0in at 25y

Even a 12moa dot would fit within the A-zone all the way to 50y.

Here is a representation of a 12moa dot at 100y. It's ease enough to see that it is off.

What we would seem to desire is a dot that allows us to see in manner that lets us make the shot with efficiency...and to call the shot with efficiency?

[Neomet]

+1 For me, it is all about finding what lets me see where the dot is on the target as quickly as possible. Maybe as I get better the issues of accuracy with no shoots or 20 yard head shots will become more important but right now I am at a coarse level where I am just trying to find what decreases the time from presentation to breaking the shot.

(Leaves soapbox to go do more dryfire drills.)

Edited April 17, 2009 by Neomet

[BritinUSA]

I prefer a smaller/brighter dot over a large dot. I got used to the 7moa of the Docter and when I switched to the 4 moa of the Aimpoint I did not notice any difference in dot size. Probably a cosnequence of the much brighter dot that the Aimpoint has. Over the past few years I've noticed a trend at Nationals towards tighter shots and I think that the smaller dot size seems to help when I engage those types of targets.

But everyone's different. I don't think there is a best dot sight, or a best gun for that matter. It all boils down to what works 'best for you, not what's best for anyone else'.

[XRe]

I prefer a smaller/brighter dot over a large dot. I got used to the 7moa of the Docter and when I switched to the 4 moa of the Aimpoint I did not notice any difference in dot size. Probably a cosnequence of the much brighter dot that the Aimpoint has.

That's because... quite frankly... the dot in the Doctor sucks. Dim and not crisp. Well, it has been in the 5 or 6 I've looked through, anyway.... There's a reason you don't see any top shooters using them on a serious USPSA gun... Burkett has been known to use one on a gun he uses for Open division 3-gun, cause it fits in a retention holster better, but when he shoots USPSA/IPSC, its currently a C-More...

[BritinUSA]

The Docter I had was modified by Beven, an dot was bright enough to handle the Colorado sunshine. But the Aimpoint is a much sharper dot.

[davecutts]

Like most things I believe we like what we are used to. Moving from a 10 moa dot to a 3 or 4moa dot (or the other way around) in the short term will cause performance to suffer and shooter to pooh pooh the new change. If the shooter sticks out the change allowing his ability and comfort to reach similar levels as they had with the old equipment then we are able to objectively judge the effectiveness of the equipment change. There will be no one perfect dot size I like a smaller dot, and Re likes one a bit bigger (I'm comparing Re and myself as skill levels seem to very close based on our finish at area2 in 2008). I'm going to say Indian not the arrow.

Next the infamous aimpoint knobs block my field of view myth. All I'm going to say is go actually shoot one for a while. You should be looking at the targets so hard the only part of the scope you are aware of is the dot. I don't see the scope at all once the buzzer goes off, and I thought I would be distracted by the knobs. I was fondling a buddies open gun with a Quinn mount on Sunday, and I thought the Cmore sticking out on the left side of the gun would be in the way, but once again, looking a the targets and transitioning in to a few there is nothing there but dot. That said aesthetically the pistol just looks wrong with the Quinn or Barry mounts.

[BritinUSA]

...the only part of the scope you are aware of is the dot. I don't see the scope at all once the buzzer goes off, and I thought I would be distracted by the knobs.

+1

All I see is dot and target.

[Zerwas]

Just a little update for this thread.

I just finished the Area 3 championship in Omaha Nebraska. I competed against 11 Master class Open shooters and 3 Gm class open shooters. I am still using my Aimpoint Micro Dot and it performed flawlessly!!!

I ended up taking 1st Master with it and I ended up being the Area 3 open division champion. I came in at 95+% of Clint Upchurch (GM) did in open division. I had Zero issues once again with finding the dot. I firmly believe having the smaller dot helped me with the long range targets/steel at this years Area 3 match.

I am so happy I found this thread at the beginning of the year and decided to get this optic. Thanks again BJ Norris for adding you .02 to the issue as well.

Go Aimpoint!

[mikeAZ]

Very interesting comparison.... I've had nothing but C-More's since they were 1st introduced and was on a "waiting list" for their introduction.. At the time, I had used "Tascos" on the P-9's (9x21 guns). I just never felt comfortible the "tube" style sights (although I never had an Aimpoint). I just put the "Quinn" mount on my 9mm open gun..... getting the sight lower I think helps alot... no matter who's "dot" you use.... Of course, I'm only a WAY Super Senior.... In the end IT'S the Shooter, NOT the scope. I've tried all the dot sizes and for my eyesight and the Arizona sun... the 6mo works for me!! I have C-Mores on all my guns including the sub guns, AR's, Shotguns, they work for me. I was never too happy with the Serindipity but you can always saw the legs off. Mike

[ExtremeShot]

Just a little update for this thread.

I just finished the Area 3 championship in Omaha Nebraska. I competed against 11 Master class Open shooters and 3 Gm class open shooters. I am still using my Aimpoint Micro Dot and it performed flawlessly!!!

I ended up taking 1st Master with it and I ended up being the Area 3 open division champion. I came in at 95+% of Clint Upchurch (GM) did in open division. I had Zero issues once again with finding the dot. I firmly believe having the smaller dot helped me with the long range targets/steel at this years Area 3 match.

I am so happy I found this thread at the beginning of the year and decided to get this optic. Thanks again BJ Norris for adding you .02 to the issue as well.

Go Aimpoint!

Zerwas, Got any pictures of your gun with the Aimpoint? ....does the Aimpoint hang over the ejection port (i.e., can ejecting brass hit the scope)?

Thx, Darren

[Zerwas]

Zerwas, Got any pictures of your gun with the Aimpoint? ....does the Aimpoint hang over the ejection port (i.e., can ejecting brass hit the scope)?

Thx, Darren

I sure do Darren. Below is the picture of it. The Aimpoint does not effect the ejection. In fact, I don't get any marks on the Millenium Aimpoint mount at all.

[ExtremeShot]

I sure do Darren. Below is the picture of it. The Aimpoint does not effect the ejection. In fact, I don't get any marks on the Millenium Aimpoint mount at all.

Cool! Thanks. ...dang you have a hair thin undercut on that trigger guard.

[WDB]

Or you could go with the Double Alpha mount. Looks like it gets it closer to the bore and nowhere even close to ejection problems since none of it is behind the barrel.