Fitness for Shooting Sports

[sigsauerfan]

i follow a training since i'm a drummer, and i find it realy usefull at the match.

i do mainly 600 push-up/sit-up everydays, + lot of bicycle riding.

it help me with wrists lock-up when shooting, muscles have a memory and i find my wrists are locking at the same position/angle when i put some pressure in my forearms....i tought i should share my experience with training helping any sports we're into, and it,s not realy different with the shooting sport, i feel better at the match in shape than not in shape...

[shooterbenedetto]

I think our sport require a soft landing feet at all times. Most stages that I shoot just require

efficient foot movement coming in and out of a port.Example,from kneeling position to your feet or vice versa.

Leaning shots from the wall going in and out of position. Very rare that we really have to run and gun

coz it takes a long time to set a stage. I say that as long as you are within your proper weight according

to your height and flexible, you are good to go. The key is having a good balance position to handle recoil

consistently on any awkward position.

[Jake Di Vita]

Now, as for the cross-fit "swings" v. a tire - completely different. I've "swung" weights before - admittedly, not for reps, but as part of a "stunt", usually trying to get a weight in position to balance on one hand. Its a "cheating" exercise. It would almost be a good glute-ham exercise, if they went deeper, and were throwing the weight, allowing them to accelerate the entire time, but it has little similarity to a tire... Sort of.

Properly done, a tire flip consists of a quick burst out of the posterior chain, dropping down, and popping it to knock it forward, and prevent it from rolling, or bobbling on the way down. If you're tired, or the tire's too heavy for that technique, it's a pull to get your knee underneath it, dropping down, and then driving it over.

As I said, if they were throwing the weight, then there would be some similarity, but that swing is too limited a movement to be a proper exercise.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. What "swings" are you talking about and how is it a cheating exercise? Also how is the swing (the only thing I think you can mean here is a kettlebell swing) not a proper exercise?

[Aglifter]

The videos I've seen could be showing poor technique, but what I've seen is a man standing, flat-footed, swinging a kettle bell from between his legs, to about chin high - staying flat-footed the whole time.

The only things we used to use kettle bells for was tossing, etc, and over-head press, where the "ball" was directly over the hand - makes for a great means of strengthening the grip and wrist while using lighter weights for speed work/GPP.

If you are going to pull on a weight w. two hands between your legs, to build the posterior chain, you really want to pull from a lower position, and drive the whole way through, down to using your feet to drive. You also want to start each rep from the ground, rather than while swinging, again, to build the ability to accelerate, and drive off the feet.

Pull-throughs are a common supplementary exercise for powerlifting, which would be similar to using the entire chain. Its usually used, TMK, by people w.o. access to a Glute-Ham Bench or Reverse Hyper Machine.

That, or if the weight was going to be accelerated, from the ground, up to where the upper body could continue the pull, into a throw, it would be excellent. If that's not to be done, the weight should certainly be started from rest, and the pull continued up onto the balls of the feet, to develop the posterior chain as much as possible, and to enhance the ability to drive off the feet.

There seems to be promise in Cross-Fit stuff, as a simplified version of lifts from strongman and 'lifting, which could be of real benefit to the populace. However, it appears that a decent percentage of the people who promote it, don't understand the exercises they're imitating/modifying, or don't feel like pushing their clients into the proper exercise. As such, it becomes a fancy means of burning calories, rather than one to obtain any real increase in performance.

A person's mind will naturally seek the laziest way to obtain a goal - and too often, the goal is merely - "do 50 of X", rather than focused on "increase my speed" or "lift XYZ".

Again, most people are probably seeking nothing more than burning calories, and if it does that, and keeps them dedicated to it, great - if the instructors are well-trained enough to spot, and adjust programs to correct, structural defects and imbalances, wonderful. (I would be surprised about that, however - that takes quite a bit of skill, beyond just the usual "Anterior Deltoids, pecs, and biceps over developed."

[Jake Di Vita]

The videos I've seen could be showing poor technique, but what I've seen is a man standing, flat-footed, swinging a kettle bell from between his legs, to about chin high - staying flat-footed the whole time.

Well by that logic a Jerk is an incomplete exercise as well as the dip and drive used to generate power is practically the exact same. I don't think you would say that jerks don't build the posterior chain, right? Also the reason you stand flat footed is because as soon as the heel leaves the ground while under load, the posterior chain completely deactivates. Imagine trying to do back squats on your toes - dangerous and extremely ineffective.

The error here that I'm seeing is you are judging the kettlebell swing as a primary exercise rather than a piece of a very large pie.

I think you should try a very scaled version of crossfit (google Norcal On-Ramp program) simply because most of this stuff needs to be experienced to have a proper perspective on it. I know you need a different perspective because:

A person's mind will naturally seek the laziest way to obtain a goal - and too often, the goal is merely - "do 50 of X",

Try and do 50 KB swings in a row. I think you will agree that "lazy" is the last thing that embodies.

Remember that the majority of these people aren't trying to be powerlifters.

[Aglifter]

I thought about this some more, this morning - I still think the exercise needs more depth - however that might vary on the individual, but if you swung off blocks, it might work well - Of course, I could be a bit focused on depth strength. I no longer compete, but, on the rare occasions I deadlift, I still usually sumo off blocks. Old habits from when I used to struggle getting out of the hole w. stones.

Again, I may have seen a bad example - obviously you don't go onto your toes in a dead lift either, but you have to be careful not to over-accelerate a dead lift.

What's supposed to be the benefit of swinging v. accelerating from a stopped position? I don't mean to imply that the people are being lazy, but if you take the same weight you're swinging, and accelerate it from rest 50 times, it should require considerably more effort - most noticeably at the top end of the lift.

We tried some of the swings, etc when I was competing in strongman - it didn't seem to add anything - but this was a group that was regularly flipping an 800# tire more than 50 times. It did end up w. us cleaning them w. a locked wrist, and pressing them overhead, which is an excellent wrist exercise, and makes that blasted speed and conditioning work more tolerable.

In case I haven't made it clear, as near as I can tell, cross-fit seems to be one of the better systems in existence for non-athletes, and not a bad foundation for athletes. IMO, it needs more focus on speed, and power, but that might add some risk of injury, and it does complicate technique. I still think its too focused on "we have the secret", etc - but you probably won't get too many customers if you tell them, "Here is your muddy/sandy/gravely field/chunk of asphalt in the blazing sun. There are your rocks, your tire, a couple sand bags, some thick ropes, and a sled."

Edited August 3, 2010 by Aglifter

[Aglifter]

Come to think of it, what all shooters should really want to be is Olympic Gymnasts... without all the injuries...

[John Thompson]

Croaafit ia famous for advertizing that they train "special ops" and professional athletes. Then when those so called vague groups are finally pinpointed their version of the extent of their crossfit training in their overall ciriullum always seem to have a rather huge discrepency. I don't think I've ever met a shooting expert who didn't claim to have trained special forces and elite FBI units. But hey when it came out that UFC star Machida drank his own piss I'm sure you find some people out there following him in that. So it must be good.

As far as certifications are concerned if you don't think that people being certified to have shown some actual formal training in a sport that can cause serious or crippling injuries I'm not going to argue with that logic. Heck next time you go to the doctor who cares if he is trained and sanctioned in what he does, he's been doing it for years and he even slept in a holdiday in express. Same logic, your personal bias notwithstanding Jake.

Edited August 3, 2010 by John Thompson

[Jake Di Vita]

Aglifter,

I'm a bit short on time so I'll provide a brief answer to your question. The way performance in CF workouts is determined is by average power output. Sure starting from a stopped position would make it harder, but the added time would greatly decrease the average power output for the workout. In a similar note, if you have to move a huge pile of rocks in real life, I'm sure you won't worry about the finer points of conventional weightlifting like you are talking about.

I totally understand what you are saying, but I believe you are comparing apples to oranges here. If we are talking about straight powerlifting, what you are saying has much more merit - however utilizing the stretch reflex (the "bounce" at the bottom of a back squat for example) is required for that as well.

croaafit ia famous for advertizing that they train "special ops" and professional athletes. Then when those so called vague groups are finally pinpointed their version of the extent of their crossfit training in their overall ciriullum always seem to have a rather huge discrepency.

Can you cite some examples please so I can do some research into it myself? I'm perfectly open to being wrong, but I'd like to do my due diligence first.

As far as certifications are concerned if you don't think that people being certified to have shown some actual formal training in a sport that can cause serious or crippling injuries I'm not going to argue with that logic. Heck next time you go to the doctor who cares if he is trained and sanctioned in what he does, he's been doing it for years and he even slept in a holdiday in express. Same logic, your personal bias notwithstanding Jake.

Here's a good example that I think is relevant. When I had my knee surgically rebuilt several years ago (ACL reconstruction, loss of entire meniscus, not able to bear any weight on my leg for 3 months before surgery) I followed my surgeon and physical therapists advice to the letter (I was regularly regarded as the hardest working patient they ever had). I had knee pain for 2 years post op, the physician's opinion was I'd have it the rest of my life. When I disregarded their "educated" advice and started squatting (something they all said was extremely hazardous to your knees), my knee pain literally disappeared in a month and has been gone ever since. So in this example, I had at least 5 people with PHDs in this field give me advice that was completely and patently false. That completely changed my outlook on doctors. And before you question it, my surgeon was highly regarded by a close personal friend of mine who is a very successful malpractice attorney.

I'll say it one more time because this point is significant. If I had listened to my doctors and blindly followed their advice, I would have been in pain for the rest of my life.

Also (with no conventional education) I have rehabbed 2 people from knee surgery (to the point where their surgeon was shocked as to their rapid progress back to health), helped several overweight people lose 30+ pounds within 2 months (and greatly increase strength), put 30+ pounds on several skinny guys looking to get stronger, and rehabbed my mom's shoulder that had been bugging her for 5 years.

In this case, bias has nothing to do with it. This is a small sampling of the people I've trained and is based on factual events. About 20 minutes ago my 55 year old father just got done with his first "Helen" as prescribed. He's healthier now than he was when he was 25 years old.

[Aglifter]

Actually, (Atlas) stones are quite brutal on technique, there's really only one way to lift them, unless they're v. light for you. If you watch a strongman match, they'll all lift the heavy ones the exact same way*.

If its a natural stone (played w. those too), then its mostly about solving how to get a grip. You will either, usually, lift a much heavier natural stone, than Atlas stone, or much lighter, depending on that grip - fairly porous limestone is the only rock I can think of where you can't lift a heavier rock than an Atlas stone - although sometimes a natural rock will tear you up a bit too much - darn near lost my right ear w. a lump of granite, once.

*("Split" the stone in half w. a line between the bumps on your ankles, get your feet as tight as they can be, and still allow your arms to fit in between your legs and the stone, squeeze w. the forearms, pop it into your lap, move your arms over the top of the stone, and roll it back, up your chest while standing.)

Using the "bounce" at the bottom of a squat isn't really about using a muscle reflex - nor do I know that its that safe. I used to do it, as a raw lifter, because I was young and stupid, but to do it safely - and to reliably do it w.o. getting DQ'd, usually requires wraps and a suit. I do not do it now, nor would I recommend anyone doing it, barring competitive powerlifters - I also don't believe that anyone, aside from powerlifters, should bench press.

You don't really bounce your muscles, though - what you do is pull down w. your hamstrings, so that the bar starts to bend, let it arc down against your back, then follow the weight up, out of the hole, as the bar springs off your back. You have to be quite solid in the hole, both for the judges, and to let the bar bounce as firmly against you as possible.

I don't know about the actual power output being different - it takes considerably more force to accelerate a weight from a stop than to redirect a moving one, nor do I think the time might be that different - when we did speed work, all we did, normally, was let it touch the ground, w.o. bouncing it. Some of the crazier SOBs used to stiff-leg the fast stuff, but I think that's mostly because A) their form wasn't that great coming from either a Football or Body Building background They weren't thinking about how fatiguing that is to their posterior chain... Of course, they were higher ranked than me so...

As for the certs - never had a coach w. a training cert. Had several w. PhDs in Kinese, some only w. BS's in it/maybe a masters - all w. an extensive competition history. Most of them, maybe all, had world records - I don't know that Coach Pack did, but he had competed for years, and had coached many, many successful lifters. I don't expect that a coach could perform at a world level, to be able to coach - but I wouldn't accept one who had never competed at a decent level, and who couldn't perform the lifts expected of the athletes, unless excused by age or injury.

All a cert means is that you passed some class - and I don't know what that class means. The weightlifting textbook when I was at A&M showed terrible form, if you followed the form and techniques espoused by the author, the pre-eminent result of your training would be injured knees. Jazz Hamilton, where ever he's wandered off to (Formerly of Houston) and Jon Hering, of Dallas, are going to be excellent trainers, or were - both w. B.S.'s in Kinese, plus their certs. TMK, they'd only occasionally compete, but they were exceptionally strong.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Aglifter

[Jake Di Vita]

I disagree with the vast majority of your post, but I don't want to type a book of information. If you are interested in what I mean, I can give you several links written by people far smarter than me.

[John Thompson]

Answer me this Jake, how did this discussion go from being about crossfit to being about you? I already linked an article chock full of love about crossfit but the rest is between you and google. You gave generalizations and I answered them that way. You say that because 'you've trained for 30 years you know a lot about the subject'. Well I've been training for 25 years and I'm a certified trainer and that certification process sure took a whole lot longer than some crossfit cert weekend. But despite all that I don't know shit compared to guys like Dan John, Mark Rippetoe, Dos Remedios, Joel Jamison, Martin Rooney, etc, etc, etc who not only have masters and doctorite degrees, not only are professional trainers of professional athletes, they're people who don't have to get into arguments to convince anybody that they know their shit about PT. Sorry man, I listen to the pros.

Edited August 4, 2010 by John Thompson

[Jake Di Vita]

You made a blanket statement which I believe to be incorrect. I respond to it with events from my own experience and you turn it around into something personal? You don't know nearly as much about me as you think you do. I greatly respect the names you mentioned, and have learned from more than one of them and countless others that you didn't name. I'm also not too shallow-minded to think I can only learn from the "pros."

For what it's worth, I wasn't trying to argue (and truth be told, I don't give a hoot about changing anyone's mind - least of all yours) I was sharing information from the perspective of putting more time into it consistently over the last several years than the majority of people do in their day jobs. Some people find value in experience regardless of credentials, I see you are not one of them.

I was trying to have an intelligent conversation...Apparently you'd rather attempt to insult me instead.

The last thing this needs to turn into is my kung-fu is better than your kung-fu. If I wanted a part of that, I'd go to T-nation. How about we call it quits because this conversation obviously isn't going anywhere.

I hope your training goes well.

[Field]

YEAH this conversation is going nowhere, damn you John Thompson.

[PINMAN44]

How does this sound? Find what you like and stick with it. I think we have all heard the old saying about opinions. We may not agree but I guess the people will have to decide what is best for them through trial and error. I preach moderation.

Here is a new slogan for ya: Eat right, exercise daily, die anyways

Peace

[entropic]

I thought the conversation was really good. I've dabbled in CF, powerlifting, and many oter types of training between the two, so I didn't mind the bickering at all

IMO, CF is really good for getting good at CF. You can also do CF and run a marathon without training specifically for it, if done correctly, so I've seen (not heard). The military is beginning to adopt CF, my brother in the Air Force trains at the free CF gym in Dayton, and, according to him, there is no doubt that it is better than the old military fitness methodology....I hope that doesn't start any new arguments.

Dave

[John Thompson]

A take on crossfit

http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/636/go-crossfit/

[Jake Di Vita]

There are so many gaps and falsehoods in his reasoning it would take me more time than I'm willing to spend to explain it.

Better yet. Read the article then the comments and do some thinking for yourselves...hopefully reading those doesn't make anyone want to stab their eyes out with a needle, like it did me.

John,

I'd love to compete against you in a workout of your choosing. I'll be shooting the OH section match next year. I'll even bring the barbells and the weights. All you have to do is show up. If Crossfit is so much BS, you should have nothing to worry about.

By the way, I never got a response to the PM I sent you months ago detailing the information of how crossfit is being used by the military. Did you receive it?

[RangerTrace]

The Texas DPS Training Academy has adopted Crossfit to train the recruits. I'm sure it's light years ahead of the crap they tortured us with 15 years ago

[doubleforte78]

The videos I've seen could be showing poor technique, but what I've seen is a man standing, flat-footed, swinging a kettle bell from between his legs, to about chin high - staying flat-footed the whole time.

Well by that logic a Jerk is an incomplete exercise as well as the dip and drive used to generate power is practically the exact same. I don't think you would say that jerks don't build the posterior chain, right? Also the reason you stand flat footed is because as soon as the heel leaves the ground while under load, the posterior chain completely deactivates. Imagine trying to do back squats on your toes - dangerous and extremely ineffective.

The error here that I'm seeing is you are judging the kettlebell swing as a primary exercise rather than a piece of a very large pie.

I think you should try a very scaled version of crossfit (google Norcal On-Ramp program) simply because most of this stuff needs to be experienced to have a proper perspective on it. I know you need a different perspective because:

A person's mind will naturally seek the laziest way to obtain a goal - and too often, the goal is merely - "do 50 of X",

Try and do 50 KB swings in a row. I think you will agree that "lazy" is the last thing that embodies.

Remember that the majority of these people aren't trying to be powerlifters.

My understanding of crossfit is that its designed to strengthen core muscles- the emphasis is not so much on the limbs or isolated muscles. The kettle bell swings require a great deal of hip strength and they are not easy! Give it a try under the supervision of a good trainer.

[calvary45]

I see too much of this is better than that on physical training exercises, I dont necessarily fully commit to any of them. I make a workout that works for me which is mixed of crossfit,powerlifting,mobility etc,etc all done at high intensity (and curcit training) for 20-30mins twice a week. The rest of the week i do slow to moderate cardio with full out tabata sprints once a week. Thats what works for me, Its no different than shooting, one thing that works for one might not work for another. So get out there and find what works for you. My workouts are also constantly evolving just like my shooting. O and by the way Kettlebell swings kick a$#.

That being said i dont have a peice of paper saying i am an expert on this, just my .02

[benelli2]

How about checking out these sites, the natural movements and explosiveness are there to make good shooting movements and a healthy overall life, I've trained with some of them and done some Crossfit, I think a blended approach is needed, just like our shooting skills, put it all in your toolbox use what you need when you need it

http://www.crossfitfootball.com/

http://movnat.com/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

http://www.fifth-ape.com/

Its working for me, see you at the range

jc