To Reshoot or Not to Reshoot

[Hoofy]

Shooter A, 9mm, has a range failure halfway through COF. RO stops Shooter A, says tape 'em up. Move them down 2 spots. Black tape is not placed over hole in hard cover.

Shooter B, 40 cal, begins COF, after engaging targets with untaped hardcover, sees hits in the hardcover after leaving that port. He decides to re-engage that target, adding several seconds to his time. RO says "... range is clear. Why did you go back to that target, you already had 2 A's?"

Shooter B asks for a reshoot because the untaped target caused him to do something that he would not have done otherwise.

RO says no reshoot.

To the RM we go.

9.1.4 - RO judged that an accurate score could be determined.

Shooter B quotes 4.6.1 "Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors."

As RM, I allowed a reshoot.

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

[JThompson]

Shooter A, 9mm, has a range failure halfway through COF. RO stops Shooter A, says tape 'em up. Move them down 2 spots. Black tape is not placed over hole in hard cover.

Shooter B, 40 cal, begins COF, after engaging targets with untaped hardcover, sees hits in the hardcover after leaving that port. He decides to re-engage that target, adding several seconds to his time. RO says "... range is clear. Why did you go back to that target, you already had 2 A's?"

Shooter B asks for a reshoot because the untaped target caused him to do something that he would not have done otherwise.

RO says no reshoot.

To the RM we go.

9.1.4 - RO judged that an accurate score could be determined.

Shooter B quotes 4.6.1 "Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors."

As RM, I allowed a reshoot.

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

I disagree with that one...

The shooter should know where his/her shots went. Since the caliber was different the RO was right in that if he/she could accurately score the COF then there is no foul. This would be the case on an untaped scoring target as well.

Say they forgot to tape one of the scoring targets and it was clear that there were four holes, two being 9mm and two being forty... if the RO says he can accurately tell which is which and I as an RM agree with him there is no reshoot. When I first started shooting I almost stopped shooting a cof because of an untapped target, the RO informed me that had I done so, I would not have been awarded a reshoot since the shooter before me was shooting 45 and he could tell which was which.

If there was a taarget with hits on it, say 45, and a 9mm shooter shoots the same target and we can only find one 9mm hole in the target beside the big honking 45s.... I would then grant a reshoot in that one of the 9mm could have passed through the 45 hole without leaving a mark, and thus I could not determine and accurate score for the shooter.

Edited January 18, 2009 by JThompson

[joseywales]

Shooter A, 9mm, has a range failure halfway through COF. RO stops Shooter A, says tape 'em up. Move them down 2 spots. Black tape is not placed over hole in hard cover.

IMO, RO should not have stopped SHOOTER A just because he saw an "un-taped" target. Reshoot required because of RO mistake.

Shooter B, 40 cal, begins COF, after engaging targets with untaped hardcover, sees hits in the hardcover after leaving that port. He decides to re-engage that target, adding several seconds to his time. RO says "... range is clear. Why did you go back to that target, you already had 2 A's?"

Shooter B asks for a reshoot because the untaped target caused him to do something that he would not have done otherwise.

RO says no reshoot.

IMO, RO was correct in not stopping SHOOTER B just because he saw an "un-taped" target.

9.1.4 - RO judged that an accurate score could be determined.

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

Make the calls according to the rules.

If RO makes a mistake and it results in a shooter advantage or disadvantage - well, it happens sometimes.

Chalk it up to experience, do your best next time.

Edited January 18, 2009 by joseywales

[Flexmoney]

If it effects the shooter's run...reshoot.

(we've covered this one a few times...search)

[pskys2]

No Re-Shoot.

One of our guys on the Revolver SS at the '08 LPR Nats had a similar situation on Stage 18.

But since the proper scores could be determined, no re-shoot was allowed. Even though it was argued for.

[Hoofy]

Shooter A's reshoot based on steel that was not set.

Backgroung for where the holes came from.

(we've covered this one a few times...search)

Search complete for current edition. No results applicable.

[JThompson]

If it effects the shooter's run...reshoot.

(we've covered this one a few times...search)

What rule gives you that>?

[George Jones]

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

You just don't know. A reshoot can be trashed and result in a lower score. The key is to make the call based on the rules.

1 - That target could be scored. No reshoot

2 - Rule 4.6.1 deals with failures and malfunctions. There were none. No reshoot.

An unpasted hit in hardcover is no different than an unpasted hit in the scoring area. A shooter is just as likely to pause/hesitate in either case. There is no rule which calls for a reshoot under either circumstance. As described in the scenario, the RO made the correct call.

Prevention (paste 'em all) is the best medicine.

[Rocket35]

I am leaning toward the reshoot only because the target should have been taped and that it affected the shooter. Everyone is entitled to the same shooting conditions and that was not the case....Give the benefit to the shooter, especially if they asked for one right away and not after looking at the targets.

[Flexmoney]

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

You just don't know. A reshoot can be trashed and result in a lower score. The key is to make the call based on the rules.

1 - That target could be scored. No reshoot

2 - Rule 4.6.1 deals with failures and malfunctions. There were none. No reshoot.

An unpasted hit in hardcover is no different than an unpasted hit in the scoring area. A shooter is just as likely to pause/hesitate in either case. There is no rule which calls for a reshoot under either circumstance. As described in the scenario, the RO made the correct call.

Prevention (paste 'em all) is the best medicine.

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

Rule 4.6.1 deals with failures and malfunctions. There were none.

Sure there were. The cof wasn't properly restored...the lack of which interfered with the shooters run.

Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors.

Reshoot.

[George Jones]

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

The "other issues" are covered in 4.6.2 and 4.6.3

To paraphrase the famous Flex.... "It's what the rule says, not what you think it should say."

[JThompson]

Is it better to give a reshoot and regret it, or not allow a reshoot and regret it?

You just don't know. A reshoot can be trashed and result in a lower score. The key is to make the call based on the rules.

1 - That target could be scored. No reshoot

2 - Rule 4.6.1 deals with failures and malfunctions. There were none. No reshoot.

An unpasted hit in hardcover is no different than an unpasted hit in the scoring area. A shooter is just as likely to pause/hesitate in either case. There is no rule which calls for a reshoot under either circumstance. As described in the scenario, the RO made the correct call.

Prevention (paste 'em all) is the best medicine.

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

Rule 4.6.1 deals with failures and malfunctions. There were none.

Sure there were. The cof wasn't properly restored...the lack of which interfered with the shooters run.

Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors.

Reshoot.

If you take that interpretation then 9.1.4 would be moot.

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the tar-

get for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the pur-

pose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same.

Edited January 18, 2009 by JThompson

[Chris Keen]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Run for the hills ....... JThompson is making sense!

Edited January 18, 2009 by CHRIS KEEN

[JThompson]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Run for the hills ....... JThompson is making sense!

Love you too Chris...

PS Anyone that knows me well enough to say that can call me Jim.

Edited January 18, 2009 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

For those who would grant the re-shoot, let me add a small bit to the scenario. Shooter shoots position with unpasted hardcover hit, then moves to next position where he promptly hits a no-shoot. He then returns to previous position fires another shot, then at the end demands a re-shoot.

Your call?

[Chris Keen]

Back to the rules ...............

9.1.4 Unrestored Targets – If, following completion of a course of fire by a

previous competitor, one or more targets have not been properly

patched or taped or if previously applied pasters have fallen off the tar-

get for the competitor being scored, the Range Officer must judge

whether or not an accurate score can be determined. If there are extra

scoring hits or questionable penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious

which hits were made by the competitor being scored, the affected

competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire. For the pur-

pose of this rule, B-zone and C-zone hits shall be considered one and

the same.

Shooter A, 9mm

Shooter B, 40 cal

Easy call - No Reshoot.

[Micah]

No reshoot.

For whatever reason, this thread reminded me of a club match where two newer shooters stopped themselves several times thinking that they deserved a reshoot for unpasted targets.

The big lesson here is to never stop yourself (dingdong!).

[IronEqualizer]

Whatever the call......un-pasted targets usually make me pause for a split second and then you leave the position wondering if you shot it from somewhere else it was visible from and now your round count is off. It takes me away from MY game and it is not what I saw when I walked through.

AL

[Paul Santiago]

The big lesson here is to never stop yourself (dingdong!).

Squibs and safety issues excluded I would think.

[XRe]

The right answer is: no reshoot. Jim already quoted the rule.

[Religious Shooter]

Give him/her a reshoot.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

[George Jones]

Give him/her a reshoot.

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

This rule does not apply. Nothing failed to function.

The only applicable rule is 9.1.4

You can't shoe horn it into 4.6.1 when 9.1.4 addresses it specifically.

It is best to not give reshoots. To do so would imply that you are knowingly benefiting the shooter by your call. We all know reshoots can be good or they can be very bad. With one exception, you require reshoots in compliance with the rules.

[Religious Shooter]

Ask yourself this... was the stage presented "equitably" to the shooter. I say no.

What do you think? Was it or was it not different for this shooter?

I would think that the bedrock of USPSA competition is equity. It is to me. And as such I would give a reshoot.

If you admit that the stage was different and you don't give him/her a reshoot... I guess you don't believe in equity.

[uscbigdawg]

No reshoot.

Rich

[George Jones]

I guess you don't believe in equity.

I believe in following the rulebook. That is the true measure of equity for all shooters.

I do not believe in making it up because it feels good.