Can fiber optic sights decrease your accuracy?

[NickJ]

Thanks for the infos and comments guys. I trully appreciate.

I will also try to paint my FO in black and see how it works for me. If it makes a difference, I might get a full front sight and give it a try.

Thanks for the help.

Just spray it with sight black, it rubs off if you don't like it. Less permanent than paint.

[tk2]

I am more accurate with all black sights. I tend to use the optic as a dot and don't see the alignment with the rear sight as well.

On the other hand, for me, I have found the fiber optic sights to be faster and accurate enough on close targets. So I use a dawson fiber optic sight and just black it out when I need more accuracy.

Edited January 14, 2009 by tk2

[mpeltier]

Depending on which way you go it seems everyone has a similar experiance when switching front sights. It seems to me that just making a change to the front sight makes your brain aware of something different, which automaticly makes you focus on that which is different. Once that change becomes the norm you revert back to old habits that cause accuracy to diminish. Its like if you walk out into your front yard and everything is the same every day. if someone drops a white stone on your lawn you notice it immediately. If your technique is solid it probably makes no differance which front sight you use.

[JeffWard]

Anybody have a recommended narrower front sight for the M&P? I have the factory FO in my Pro Series. I'd like to try a narrower FO with a smaller dot.

Thanks,

JW

[Josh Biondi]

I use the red dot fiber optic in 0.100". Before i was using the 0.125" and it works better on the target near, but on the distant target it was no good for precision. The 0.100 is a good compromise that works fine also on long distance.

[PEETERSMARC]

Hello

you can find an interesting reply From Eric Grauffel Here :

Global Village

[Filishooter]

Anybody have a recommended narrower front sight for the M&P? I have the factory FO in my Pro Series. I'd like to try a narrower FO with a smaller dot.

Thanks,

JW

Try a Dawson F/O.100 Wide X .180 tall. Speedshooters has them!

Even with the smaller diameter .040 FO I still blackout half of the rod (to reduce the glow).

Edited January 15, 2009 by Filishooter

[bkeeler]

Hello

you can find an interesting reply From Eric Grauffel Here :

Global Village

Wow! Nice read.

I think it is time to experiment with this.

BK

[rvb]

Hello

you can find an interesting reply From Eric Grauffel Here :

Global Village

could you cut-n-paste for those of us w/o an account?

thanks,

-rvb

[bkeeler]

Copied and pasted from Global Village.

Hi Eric,

I wanted to hear your opinion about eye focus. Target vs front sight focus. ( I know you shoot open but...)

I am trying to take my game to the next level I searched and searched the net....but the top shooters always silent when the subject comes up.

I am A class Single Stack shooter, I do use a green fiber optic front sight.

On medium to long range shooting (10 plus yards) I first look at the middle of the target and as I drive the gun to the target I switch to front sight focus - but it is not a hard focus on the front sight, more like a soft focus if you can follow me. I tend to look at the targets on up close targets.

I played around with different focus points in the past...I can call my shots very accurately (unfortunately not always in a match...) if I use front sight focus and get almost always 2 A's. If I keep my focus on the target (let's talk about an El Presidente like shooting here 10 yards) it is a bit faster but generally I can not point out where the shots landed. Leave alone 15 -25 yard targets at that distance I am just guessing if I am not looking somehow at the front sight (that soft focus)

Some say that the top shooters use target focus, it's enables them to acquire targets faster....

but nobody is really talking - you know no one really talks about the mental aspect of the game nor the focus what they using.

Every body shares info about their gear and their fundamentals....but there are some touchy subjects.

So Eric if you would not mind sharing a little bit I would appreciate your help.

Regards,

Akos T. M.

QUOTE(Akos T. Mester @ 14 Jan 2009, 12:29 pm) *

I do use a green fiber optic front sight.

Like I do, then you have a good point.

It is not an easy question, but I'll try to answer it the best I can.

Yes I am an open shooter but about 40% of the ammos I burn per year are done in Standard/limited.

First, for me there is no half focus on sight or target, either you focus on one or the other one.

For me the focus must be on the target, otherwise as you mention it will be hard to call your shots.

Now it comes, Do I shoot both eyes open, or one eye closed. The first answer would be: " your call, it's a shooter preference", knowing than when you reach a certain distance, most of the shooters will close 1 eye.

Now, what I personnly do:

in between 0 to 15 meters, I shoot both eyes open.

Over 15 meters, I close one eye.

If I have a tight shot with a PT under 15 meters, I will also close one eye.

Hope this helps

--------------------

Eric Grauffel

Hi Eric

Thanks a lot for this opinion.

As I startet shooting 2 years ago, I always focused on the target. After 1 year I read some books and they told me "you are wrong" - and also the other IPSC shooters told me the same.

So I startet to change my eye focus to the front sight. And at this time, my scooring went bad, my times went bad, but I stay with "sight focus" because everybody told me......

Now I think, I will start again with target focu, because its much more "naturaly" for me.

DVC

Gerhard

Eric, does this mean your focus is always on the target, during the entire transition/shot and even when the target is small/far away?

I am really surprized that you use a target focus. Especially since all other top shooters I know mostly stress a 100% sight focus during the shot.

This post has been edited by Bjorn Dietrich: Today, 03:51 am

Sorry, I did not make it clear enough.

I shoot a standard gun with a Fiber Optic.

So I use the same focus in Open than with my standard gun. I use the front sight just like it was a dot on my open gun.

But if I was just using a regular front sight, I would probably focus on the iron sight.

the fiber on the front sight is at a certain position on your sight and it's easy then to analyse while you shoot.

With a regular front sight, let's say you don't have any point of reference, so the only way to survive is to watch ( focus ) your front sight.

I've got to go to the shot show now, I'll check out later

--------------------

Eric Grauffel

Still not enough clear.

So I think it's a shooter Preference.

But if you use an Optic Front Sight, then focus on your target.

Regular Front sight, focus on your sight.

--------------------

Eric Grauffel

Edited January 15, 2009 by bkeeler

[rvb]

For me the focus must be on the target, otherwise as you mention it will be hard to call your shots.

So I use the same focus in Open than with my standard gun. I use the front sight just like it was a dot on my open gun.

But if I was just using a regular front sight, I would probably focus on the iron sight.

But if you use an Optic Front Sight, then focus on your target.

Regular Front sight, focus on your sight.

That just BLEW my mind. Grabbed my world and turned it up side down.

-rvb

Edited January 16, 2009 by rvb

[bkeeler]

That just BLEW my mind. Grabbed my world and turned it up side down.

-rvb

I had the same reaction. Time to do some testing!

BK

[AlamoShooter]

The concept that a fiber optic decreases accuracy will not float. The only thing it could do is encourage, or let the shooter get away with a less defined front sight focus on many shots.

Its as simple as 'See what You need to see' When you have to make a more accurate shot see more definition in the metal edges of the front sight .

But thin I got a bunch of misses with a fiber Optic, could it have to do with not shooting Irons in the past 16 years

[rvb]

That just BLEW my mind. Grabbed my world and turned it up side down.

-rvb

I had the same reaction. Time to do some testing!

BK

I won't be trying it any time soon. I had a huge problem for the longest time of focusing on the target. It worked fine up to ~10 yards but after that the sights were just too blurry and even if I -thought- I was all aligned, I wasn't and my accuracy suffered. Took a LOT of work personally to get my focus on the FS and my accuracy is worlds better than it was 2 years ago. I still target-focus on close stuff and sort of look through the sights, but I'm ok with that as I'm seeing "what I need to see" to get in the A zone. But I now know when it works and when it doesn't and it's not even a conscious decision but rather, well, seeing what I need to.

So either someday when I get to the multiple world championship level I'll do a 180 and realize how wrong I am now, but it's just not for me. Or we just figured out that EG has some FREAKISH eye focus genetic thing going on. haha..

But to me what is amazing is hearing someone so accomplished say something that goes completely against what we KNOW to be RIGHT... and to say it like it's just so obvious. Just goes to show there is no ONE right answer, so long as you're seeing what you need to make the hit. Amazing. [and humbling]

-rvb

Edited January 16, 2009 by rvb

[bkeeler]

I use a target focus on close shots(or look through the sights). I think the key is to have a focus on something (target or sights). It is when you don't see anything when you thought you saw something when things go wrong.(hope that made sense) It still all comes down to see what you need to see to make the shot.(this is different for everyone) I am still finding out what I need to see!

EG also says he closes one eye on tight shots and over 15m's. Thought that was interesting too.

BK

[edgerat]

FWIW, the average human eye sees green 6 times more than red so a green sight would technically be more visible than a red FO. Food for thought and the non-colorblind.

[bigj45]

Green means go, Red means stop. Maybe I need a yellow fiber optic.

[VegasOPM]

That was a cool post from EG- the person that asked the question is also a friend of mine who happens to be an accuracy monster in his own right. To be honest, I have found that I do use the FO front as a "dot" at closer than 7 yds. I rely on my index to put the sights where my focus is and adjust my focus from target to front sight- depending on distance. I thought that it was interesting what he said about both eyes open or one eye closed. I have always shot with one eye closed, but I am finding myself leaving both eyes open and taking on a target focus for closer targets, but still closing one eye and focusing hard on the front sight for the tight shots. I guess that it all comes down to "seeing what you have to see" huh?

[el pres]

Green means go, Red means stop. Maybe I need a yellow fiber optic.

Bad idea, if red is stop and green is go then yellow should mean speed up !!

and we all know not to focus on speed !!

[ger]

I found this thread via a search as I had the same question. I have been shooting for 20 plus years for recreation but just recently got into some matches (hooked btw)

I recently purchased a pistol that came with FO front sight which I have never shot before and spent a day at the range how to best figure this thing out. Now I am sure I am making some huge mistake as I do not have anytime time under my belt as a competition shooter.

I spent some time pulling the gun up to fire and analyzing my sight picture and the bullet strikes and found that I was putting the green F/O on top of my rear sights. So I just went back to the bench and adjusted everything so when I have to take the far shot I am centering the F/O in center and on top of my rear sight. Seems to work fine for me but I am sure I am over looking something I have not encountered as a new comer to the competitive shooting scene and I am still looking for the range , so if someone has done this and found the reason it will not work well for the long run, now is the time I need to rethink before I get caught up in learning the wrong way.

Thanks

[Jman]

I found this thread via a search as I had the same question. I have been shooting for 20 plus years for recreation but just recently got into some matches (hooked btw)

I recently purchased a pistol that came with FO front sight which I have never shot before and spent a day at the range how to best figure this thing out. Now I am sure I am making some huge mistake as I do not have anytime time under my belt as a competition shooter.

I spent some time pulling the gun up to fire and analyzing my sight picture and the bullet strikes and found that I was putting the green F/O on top of my rear sights. So I just went back to the bench and adjusted everything so when I have to take the far shot I am centering the F/O in center and on top of my rear sight. Seems to work fine for me but I am sure I am over looking something I have not encountered as a new comer to the competitive shooting scene and I am still looking for the range , so if someone has done this and found the reason it will not work well for the long run, now is the time I need to rethink before I get caught up in learning the wrong way.

Thanks

If it works. Its works. Personally I can't imagine using a sight picture you described. Alignment is critical for me. A benchrest session shooting groups with sandbag support will help. You didn't mention if your rear sight is adjustable. If it is this will, more than likely, solve the mis-alignment. You want the "dot" centered in the notch. Not floating around above it.

Jim

[ger]

I found this thread via a search as I had the same question. I have been shooting for 20 plus years for recreation but just recently got into some matches (hooked btw)

I recently purchased a pistol that came with FO front sight which I have never shot before and spent a day at the range how to best figure this thing out. Now I am sure I am making some huge mistake as I do not have anytime time under my belt as a competition shooter.

I spent some time pulling the gun up to fire and analyzing my sight picture and the bullet strikes and found that I was putting the green F/O on top of my rear sights. So I just went back to the bench and adjusted everything so when I have to take the far shot I am centering the F/O in center and on top of my rear sight. Seems to work fine for me but I am sure I am over looking something I have not encountered as a new comer to the competitive shooting scene and I am still looking for the range , so if someone has done this and found the reason it will not work well for the long run, now is the time I need to rethink before I get caught up in learning the wrong way.

Thanks

If it works. Its works. Personally I can't imagine using a sight picture you described. Alignment is critical for me. A benchrest session shooting groups with sandbag support will help. You didn't mention if your rear sight is adjustable. If it is this will, more than likely, solve the mis-alignment. You want the "dot" centered in the notch. Not floating around above it.

Jim

yes, it is adjustable. I guess what I was attempting to say in type,

was my eyes were centering the F/O automatically centered in rear sight notch but high in the sight picture...so in this experiment I adjusted the point of impact to be exactly what my eyes were doing on there own with the F/O dot. Does it work for me? well I am to new and to few rounds down range with this gun and its F/O to know for sure. This thread has definitely "opened" my eyes to what is the norm.

Ger