vluc Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Rules say sight picture only from make ready position. How do others address movement for sight picture by a shooter after that (but before AYR, SB)...warning, procedural, dq? Add to that established shooters who continually do it. Opinions wanted. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competi- tor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. If the RO doesn't give permission, I guess a procedural is in order. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Excellent question, Vince. Nowhere in the rulebook is a procedural or other penalty specified for violating that restriction. Procedurals (with the exception of assisance/interference and approaching targets) are about shooting - things that happen on the clock. This rule is there to prevent shooters from air-gunning the whole stage after the MR command, with the RO breathlessly in tow. A penalty is not specified so a procedural cannot be applied (you can't just make up procedurals). This kind of scenario is a case of RO control - over his stage and over the shooter. As long as the RO maintains control, everything is good. In general, I use the definition of movement (more than one step) as my guide. Many shooters like to mimic their first step as they "draw" to load after Make Ready.... and I allow the shooter that one step. If I see the back foot come off the ground, I have no idea how much further the shooter intends to go and I issue the Stop command to keep him where he is. No harm, no foul. Not all stages are the same. If the first intended targets are in view, I use the one step guidline. If it is a stage where the first targets are not readily visible, I tend to flex a little, knowing that many shooters like to take their sight picture on something they intend to shoot (rather than on a prop or barrier). It's not difficult to predict. A shooter who habitually "goes too far" needs to be stopped - everytime. Eventually, he will figure it out. Now, if the shooter ignores the Stop command, or does it again after being stopped once, there is a rule which applies - 10.6.1 But, it should never come to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Great answer George... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Yup, thanks, George! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 You the man George. The STOP command gets the shooters attention without a lengthy conversation being needed (Hey you get back to the starting position, you know the rules) and gets the point across - firmly and simply. Why didn't we think of that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I'm glad George typed that out. +1 I run shooters is almost the exact same manner. Basically, while in the timer and after giving the MR command, I'm not looking to move around and follow the shooter. I will, of course, do so. But, if I have to...then the shooter is going to hear about it. FYI...no procedural as: 10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I have a tendency to go a step or two if I intend to move on the draw, and I like to go at least to the point I can see a target. No one has ever said anything about it that had a timer in hand, though I have heard some whining in the peanut gallery. I like George's answer, it not only fits what I like to do it seems reasonable to give the shooter that much leeway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 As the shooter, you should just ask ("prior approval"). Then you are covered (and won't have your head full with the likes of me, George, etc. yelling STOP you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 How many times would you allow a shooter to do this? When do you say "Thats enough"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. If we have this rule, then why should we not yell STOP if a competitor moves out of the starting area without prior approval? To me a sight picture means the shooter checks to make sure the dot works or the front sight is still on the gun. As an RO I get to do enough running in a match that I am not going to happy with shooters taking off after "Make Ready" because they want a sight picture on a hidden target. Beside quite often I get to RO the local Super Squad and if 1 tries it and gets away with it then several others will try it also and that slows down stage flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 If we have this rule, then why should we not yell STOP if a competitor moves out of the starting area without prior approval? To me a sight picture means the shooter checks to make sure the dot works or the front sight is still on the gun. As an RO I get to do enough running in a match that I am not going to happy with shooters taking off after "Make Ready" because they want a sight picture on a hidden target. Beside quite often I get to RO the local Super Squad and if 1 tries it and gets away with it then several others will try it also and that slows down stage flow. I'd have to say that "because I don't want to move" is not a reasonable excuse to stop shooters from moving to get a sight picture on a target. Also, the vast majority of the time it takes to cycle shooters through stages is in scoring and resetting. Stopping shooters from taking a few steps is like putting a bandaid on a broken bone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Actually, the rule does not allow the movement: 8.3.1.1 Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Of course, the "prior approval" is there to allow such action. If the competitor continues to do this, obviousely, they are not ready to start the course of fire. Move them to the back of the squad and bring up the next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 8.3.1.1 In part states that " Once the “Make Ready” command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the “Start Signal” without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer." A-3 Must . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mandatory. A-3 Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.) IMHO this is simple. Once the "Make Ready" is given the shooter is not permitted to and cannot leave the "start location". There may well be no penalty for failure to abide by these rules, but that does not give us a reason to "flex a little". We don't do that for PF or the 180, (164.9 is not major, 180.1 degrees and you go home.) Taking more than one step from the starting position is a violation of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 IMHO this is simple. Once the "Make Ready" is given the shooter is not permitted to and cannot leave the "start location". There may well be no penalty for failure to abide by these rules, but that does not give us a reason to "flex a little". We don't do that for PF or the 180, (164.9 is not major, 180.1 degrees and you go home.)Taking more than one step from the starting position is a violation of the rules. The chronograph is a machine. It spits out hard numbers. A Range Officer is expected to use sound judgment. The rulebook is not meant to be a weapon to use against the shooter. More than one step is (IMO) a technical violation of the rule, which is why I give the Stop command if it appears the shopoter may go further. I also choose to "flex a little" when I can predict that some shooters may go a bit further on that particular stage. So if I don't give the Stop command, I have implicitely given my prior approval for that second step. Even if I fail to stop the shooter promptly, no penalty applies. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Kinder and gentler since 1997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I always thought the RO's job was to assist the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I always thought the RO's job was to assist the shooter. 7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) I think the point is that some people just take to damn long to ready the gun and get to work. And to this I would have to agree. More times than not, I just insert the mag, rack the slide and holster. Some people take longer at LAMR than shooting the stage! Editted to add that the time for a "walkthrough" and visualization is before the "Load and Make Ready" command. I see alot of people that misunderstand that. Edited January 5, 2009 by Rocket35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I think that the RO's first job is safety for the spectators, competitors, himself, and the shooter. Enforcing the rules help assure that those requirements are met. He must oversee the stage procedure is followed, too. But I don't see him as helping the shooter. If his job is helping the shooter then why do they let someone pass up targets and not tell them; or tell you that you would be better off not making a reload and taking one shot? I don't think the RO should assist you...Just keep everything safe and a level playing field. Everyone has had the same chance to find out what he needs to do on the walk through. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Having read the rules, I simply ask for permission and have never been refused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slip knot Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 We miss you George.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 We miss you George.... Take your time...... Aim carefully..... Squeeze the trigger...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 We miss you George.... +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 George nailed this one, not an uncommon occurrence I might note. Jake the RO "assist" you, in this case, by keeping you within the rules, and providing the same playground for all the competitors. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 If RO's aren't there to assist the shooter - why do we always give them the benefit of the doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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