Cy Soto Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 (edited) Cy,Please don't mistake my comments as criticism. No, no... I understand what you meant. I didn't think that what you said was a critique, I was just replying by saying that what XRe said summed up my thoughts too. We all learn in different ways, I just said that leaving the center of the target intact and verifying my shots is what what works for me. Edited January 1, 2009 by Cy Soto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Cool. I don't know what works best for me yet, but I certainly enjoy these discussions so I can try new stuff! Its been one hell of a year for learning to shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Under pressure, our groups will open up. Ability to shoot a 4in group might turn into an 8in group. So, while I would experiment (and it does need to be experienced) with the outline or negative of the whole A-zone, I need a tighter discipline on where to drive the gun (Target Spot) as part of my regular mindset. Those 4x4in sticker that I like, you get the same advantage as cutting a negative in the target. Only paste the shots that are out of the sticker, then slap a new sticker on from time to time. (If you want/need a tighter aiming area, get smaller stickers.) The upper A-zone placement that I use is my "default" aiming area. I don't have to consciously aim differently when there is a a no-shoot covering the bottom half of the Alpha. Same with hard cover...or many of the common target presentations that we see. So, that becomes one less thing that I have to make a conscious program for. Of course, that won't cover all of the target presentations that we see (if it does, then your stage designers are cheating you out of some shooting challenges). - Aim small, hit small - Know where to drive the gun (target spot) - Experiment with the various presentations and ways of figuring out your targets. - Experience the shooting...get interested in what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 The upper A-zone placement that I use is my "default" aiming area. I don't have to consciously aim differently when there is a a no-shoot covering the bottom half of the Alpha. Same with hard cover...or many of the common target presentations that we see. So, that becomes one less thing that I have to make a conscious program for. That makes quite bit of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The lower -0 on the IDPA target is towards the upper portion of an IPSC's lower A-Zone. By aiming higher on the IPSC target's lower A-Zone you are essentially practicing for both IDPA and IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Another good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjkelso Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Gosh you guys are good. I like the Idea of visualizing my hits in that upper a zone. In my mind they are always there. The more I visualize the more they turn up in the right spot while competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Kyle, So, what are those 4" red squares made of, and where could I get some of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Kyle,So, what are those 4" red squares made of, and where could I get some of it? I am obviously not Kyle but I'll take a stab at it... In the past I have used 3M Post-It notes. I think the "standard size" ones are closer to 2"x2" but they work fine for practice at closer distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Duane, The stickers that I use are warning labels that would go on the outside of a 55 gallon drum (for instance). A shooting buddy gave my number of them. I've got some that came on a roll and some in a stack. That aren't all red. One is a white warning label with a black border and a picture of skull and crossbones on it. Search online and you should be able to find all varieties of generic labels and stickers. The ones I like are about 4x4 inch. I'm sure you can find a better deal, but I googled and found this as an example: <clickity> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkatz44 Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Brian (our host) suggests outlining the A-zone. Also...I like taping a cross through the middle of the A-zone ( + ). As seen on the left target. I also like putting 4 inch (~10cm) square stickers in the top part of the A-zone. Why at the top of the A zone? Experiment...see what you see...experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 ive got a fullsize IPSC target in my living room for dryfire, as well as 1/3 targets. for the large one, i have a magazine subscription card (you know, the ones that fall out all the time, lol). i taped that to the upper center of the A zone to give me something to focus on and then have recenty taken a Sharpie and colored a black box about 2"x3" on the white card. this gives me a very concise target point to draw to. i figure if i can draw to a smallish target like that, i can draw to the full size A-zone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 To me outlining/highlighting the A-Zone on practice targets is a crutch. If you don’t know where to aim at the target in the first place then work on that first. If you know where you are suppose to aim, but are not seeing it during practice that is a whole different issue. If you are calling your shots you should KNOW where your hits are on the target without looking or needing an additional visual queue to confirm where your shots are going or what you are aiming at. Anything less than that means that you are not seeing what you need to in order to call your shots. I also don’t think its good to practice on targets you will not experience in a match. I am yet to go to a match where the A-zones are outlined or stickers/cards are placed on the target where I should be aiming at. The ability to call your shots is a 100% visual process which should trigger your actions upon what is seen as “Good” to enable you to break the shot. If you do a boat load of visual practice with looking for visual queues (Cards, Highlighted scoring zones, outlined perfs, stickers, etc) that don’t exist in a match you are setting yourself up for failure because you will not experience that in a match. Practice the game you are playing. Its as simple as that. I am yet to go to a “Shoot the outlined perf A-zone target” match so I don’t practice that skill. But in the end, this is just my opinion. Do whatever you feel works for what you are trying to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 To me outlining/highlighting the A-Zone on practice targets is a crutch. If you don’t know where to aim at the target in the first place then work on that first. If you know where you are suppose to aim, but are not seeing it during practice that is a whole different issue. If you are calling your shots you should KNOW where your hits are on the target without looking or needing an additional visual queue to confirm where your shots are going or what you are aiming at. Anything less than that means that you are not seeing what you need to in order to call your shots. I also don’t think its good to practice on targets you will not experience in a match. I am yet to go to a match where the A-zones are outlined or stickers/cards are placed on the target where I should be aiming at. The ability to call your shots is a 100% visual process which should trigger your actions upon what is seen as “Good” to enable you to break the shot. If you do a boat load of visual practice with looking for visual queues (Cards, Highlighted scoring zones, outlined perfs, stickers, etc) that don’t exist in a match you are setting yourself up for failure because you will not experience that in a match. Practice the game you are playing. Its as simple as that. I am yet to go to a “Shoot the outlined perf A-zone target” match so I don’t practice that skill. But in the end, this is just my opinion. Do whatever you feel works for what you are trying to achieve. You're not wrong..... On the other hand, occasionally outlining an A-zone so you can have a reference of where it is at various distances, and then practicing that for a little while, can cut some time off learning where the A-zone really is.... Same thing with cards --- if you find yourself consistently shooting low, you might want to put a reminder high, to teach you where to aim. Obviously you want to get rid of those aids at some point, because we don't see them in matches..... I've found that aids can shortcut my learning curve in the beginning --- by teaching me what I need to see in any given situation..... It's a lot like double-plugging or going back to .22 if you see a flinch developing --- you might not (and should not) always do that, but in the short run you'll fix the problem sooner.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 At the range I shoot at I sometimes do not have the luxury of shooting distances of less than 25yds. In those cases I will stick a Caldwell Orange peel 5" target top of the A- zone. This allows me to see where my shots have hit without approaching the target. I did this because I was getting in the habit of using the white no shoot side to highlight my shots and was afraid my brain would cause me to do the same in a match. For dry fire indoors I use 1/2 scale airsoft targets mixed with a standard metric with no outline or tape because I don't want to be looking for it at a match. I think for a lowley C- class shooter as I am it's important not to confuse the mind!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I do agree with the thoughts of "if its not there during a match, dont do it practice' thoughts, but.... For me where I am in my development (very very beginning) its a big help for me to train myself on the upper Azone, etc. Plus, in my own head, im trying to train myself to hit a smaller target, then when i get to a match, ill be happy to see those big ole A zones starring back at me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 On my 1/3 and 1/2 scale AS targets, I mark only the A zone on the overall silhouette. It reminds me what the target really is. In practice, I sort of use a negative A zone - I only tape hits out of the A zone. I do groups and accuracy drills on fully taped targets. Works on partial A zones as well. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I don't share this thought too often (because few get it...maybe I don't explain it well),,, Defining a smaller area...like with an outlining the A-zone, using a "+" or a sticker...that teaches your conscious mind where to drive the gun in a specific manner. But, as an added benefit, it conditions the mind to want to see the gun in the proper location with regards to the general outline of the target as a whole as well. Maybe this rough drawing gives a crud example. The stickers and such are like training tools, that help you learn to drive the gun to the right place. Then, your mind can also pick up on the fact that the outline of the target as a whole ought to look a certain way (since we are often afforded such a nice and consistent target in our games). [edit to add] In the above diagram, the "reference point" isn't a sticker, or the perfs, or even a paster or the "A" printed on the target. The reference point is the perimeter of the target itself (red border). But, for training and practice, it's a bit crude. That is why I like the cross "+" or something like it...which gives a specific reference point to "aim small, hit small". We can get the crude reference point by osmosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Hmmmm. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC_Cyclone Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) This isn't exactly outlining the A zone, but is similar to the negative target concept in post 20. When I started USPSA last July I built six parctice targets out of scrap pegboard. They each have an "L" bracket on the back to slide in a replaceable piece of cardboard in the A zone. Regular cardboard is a shade lighter and is visibly distinguishable from the rest of the target. I just bring along alot of extras cut to size for each session. It seems quicker and easier than taping and the scrap cardboard is free. Plus I have an incentive to shoot A's to preserve my handiwork. I think its been helpful as a novice to overcome a natural tendency to aim center of target/bottom of A zone. If you look closely, I have a few misses, low and left Edited January 8, 2010 by IC_Cyclone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) To me outlining/highlighting the A-Zone on practice targets is a crutch. If you don’t know where to aim at the target in the first place then work on that first. If you know where you are suppose to aim, but are not seeing it during practice that is a whole different issue. If you are calling your shots you should KNOW where your hits are on the target without looking or needing an additional visual queue to confirm where your shots are going or what you are aiming at. Anything less than that means that you are not seeing what you need to in order to call your shots. I also don’t think its good to practice on targets you will not experience in a match. I am yet to go to a match where the A-zones are outlined or stickers/cards are placed on the target where I should be aiming at. The ability to call your shots is a 100% visual process which should trigger your actions upon what is seen as “Good” to enable you to break the shot. If you do a boat load of visual practice with looking for visual queues (Cards, Highlighted scoring zones, outlined perfs, stickers, etc) that don’t exist in a match you are setting yourself up for failure because you will not experience that in a match. Practice the game you are playing. Its as simple as that. I am yet to go to a “Shoot the outlined perf A-zone target” match so I don’t practice that skill. But in the end, this is just my opinion. Do whatever you feel works for what you are trying to achieve. I have shot quite a few matches that the A zone is outlined and yes they were legal and they were at Major matches and some at locals also. Make a Ohio match and you'll shoot an outline Azone. At the Ipsc Nationals it would of been nice to have the entire Azone. We had a 2in. strip the length of the target to shoot at. Guys shooting Azone shots got penalities, guys shooting target spots didn't. You had to be able to call your shot exactly on the "Brazilian". If you have shot very many matches you have shot the 4x4 A-zone too or close to it. It might not be exactly 4x4 but its pretty close. Just throw a no-shoot on a target that covers up most of the Azone and there ya go. The point is the only hit that should be accepted is a Azone hit. If you have a no-shoot covering a target and you have section of the Azone available the 4x4 sticker is very useful and practical to use. It isn't about hitting the Azone, its about hitting the target spot. That could be the top left corner of the Azone or the bottom right corner. Using the "Training Aids" is nothing more than training your mind to what is acceptable sight picture when given a smaller target area. "Edited to Add" Another benefit of stickers or visual reference points is to work on Eye snap/leading with the eyes. This is a must have skill set. Do you practice with no shoots at practice?? If you do your are actually doing the exact same thing they are talking about. If you have a no shoot on a target and it covers the bottom half of the Azone that means the Upper half of the Azone is available. Well that is now you target area. Any shots that go under/low to your acceptable target area will be a penality, right?? The sticker is the same concept except it requires a smaller target area and a more refined sight picture, visual patience and calling your shot at speed. So what is happening is they are making it harder and requiring themselves to have more visual patience than "just aiming at the Azone" If a bad shot occurs using a smaller reference point allows for some forgiveness. "Aim small, Miss small". If you practice with no shoots in practice then your doing the exact same thing as someone placing a sticker on a target. Your creating a smaller target area. Flyin Edited January 8, 2010 by Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Target SPOT thread. <clickity> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) I don't share this thought too often (because few get it...maybe I don't explain it well),,,Defining a smaller area...like with an outlining the A-zone, using a "+" or a sticker...that teaches your conscious mind where to drive the gun in a specific manner. But, as an added benefit, it conditions the mind to want to see the gun in the proper location with regards to the general outline of the target as a whole as well. This is also discussed on pages 2-3 of this excellent thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=9655&st=25 something to hopefully add to the discussion.... I was discussing this in person with a squadmate this summer... I think it clicked for them when I said to point to someone's belly button [not w/ a gun!]. Even though (thankfully) the person was wearing a shirt hiding their belly button, they could instantly snap their focus and aim to that spot. I then told them to point to a spot in the center of the upper 1/3rd of the A zone on a metric target some distance away (where you couldn't see the perfs) and it wasn't obvious for them where that spot was. it helps to engrain where, proportionally, that target spot is on the over-all target. this way your eyes can snap to that spot based on the shape of the whole thing. ... just like he could instantly identify where a belly button should be. it's much faster and more consistant than snapping to brown and fishing for a spot to aim. one might think that drawing a "belly button" on the target would be a crutch and at matches where the target is all brown you would be lost, but what if you suddenly subconsciously KNOW where that "belly button" SHOULD be? -rvb Edited January 8, 2010 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkatz44 Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 What would be the best way to put a sticker in the a zone on a classic targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 9, 2010 Share Posted January 9, 2010 Peel off, stick on. Flex actually recommends putting the sticker a bit above center in the A-zone since, in his experience, shots that get pulled have a tendency to get pulled low, not high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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