Dropped gun while holstering

[Chris Keen]

WARNING - Relevant thread drift:

It was at the end of a stage. I had showed clear, hammer down, and droped the gun out fo the holster. I caught it on my leg, but the muzzle broke the 180 behind me.

FYI the rules say that even if you catch the gun somehow (trapping it between your leg & hand) you have still commited a DQ-able offense.

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1

The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and .......

[G-ManBart]

WARNING - Relevant thread drift:

It was at the end of a stage. I had showed clear, hammer down, and droped the gun out fo the holster. I caught it on my leg, but the muzzle broke the 180 behind me.

FYI the rules say that even if you catch the gun somehow (trapping it between your leg & hand) you have still commited a DQ-able offense.

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1

The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and .......

If he had already responded to the RO's question of "if you are finished, unload and show clear" by unloading, showing clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster and then dropped the gun, the course of fire was completed and it shouldn't be a DQ. Since you can't reload the gun and start shooting after the RO says "if you are finished" and you respond by unloading and showing clear, the COF is over. Right????

It would seem that if you're not allowed to shoot any longer, the COF has to be over, but I guess there could be something in the rulings that clarifies it. R,

[Alan Meek]

WARNING - Relevant thread drift:

It was at the end of a stage. I had showed clear, hammer down, and droped the gun out fo the holster. I caught it on my leg, but the muzzle broke the 180 behind me.

FYI the rules say that even if you catch the gun somehow (trapping it between your leg & hand) you have still commited a DQ-able offense.

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1

The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and .......

If he had already responded to the RO's question of "if you are finished, unload and show clear" by unloading, showing clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster and then dropped the gun, the course of fire was completed and it shouldn't be a DQ. Since you can't reload the gun and start shooting after the RO says "if you are finished" and you respond by unloading and showing clear, the COF is over. Right????

It would seem that if you're not allowed to shoot any longer, the COF has to be over, but I guess there could be something in the rulings that clarifies it. R,

Per USPSA Rules

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

Alan

[norbs007]

Really good point there G-man; I myself will consider it after the COF. The only question is it's before the "Range is clear" command.

[norbs007]

Alan beat me buy a second

[G-ManBart]

WARNING - Relevant thread drift:

It was at the end of a stage. I had showed clear, hammer down, and droped the gun out fo the holster. I caught it on my leg, but the muzzle broke the 180 behind me.

FYI the rules say that even if you catch the gun somehow (trapping it between your leg & hand) you have still commited a DQ-able offense.

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:

10.5.3.1

The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and .......

If he had already responded to the RO's question of "if you are finished, unload and show clear" by unloading, showing clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster and then dropped the gun, the course of fire was completed and it shouldn't be a DQ. Since you can't reload the gun and start shooting after the RO says "if you are finished" and you respond by unloading and showing clear, the COF is over. Right????

It would seem that if you're not allowed to shoot any longer, the COF has to be over, but I guess there could be something in the rulings that clarifies it. R,

Per USPSA Rules

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

Alan

Interesting. I'm not arguing, but that would seem to contradict the fact that you can't load/reload and engage a target you realize that you've missed/forgotten after responding to the "if you are finished" by unloading and showing clear.

It would seem that either the COF is finished or it's not, and these two scenarios and the rules addressing them suggest that in one situation we consider the COF finished and in the other, it's not.

I don't really care, but it does seem that being consistent across different situations would be a good idea....if I were king I'd suggest to the Board that we pick one or the other...clearly, I'm not king

[Nik Habicht]

Interesting. I'm not arguing, but that would seem to contradict the fact that you can't load/reload and engage a target you realize that you've missed/forgotten after responding to the "if you are finished" by unloading and showing clear.

It would seem that either the COF is finished or it's not, and these two scenarios and the rules addressing them suggest that in one situation we consider the COF finished and in the other, it's not.

I don't really care, but it does seem that being consistent across different situations would be a good idea....if I were king I'd suggest to the Board that we pick one or the other...clearly, I'm not king

Can you start shooting the moment the course of fire has begun? It begins with "Make Ready," but most all of us accept that we do not have permission to commence firing until after receiving the start signal. In the same vein, the shooting stops before the course of fire ends; the course of fire does not terminate with the end of shooting, but only at the conclusion of several procedures that are designed to ensure competitor, range official and spectator safety.....

[TM262]

At the time, I was not sure what would happen, but as stated above. 'Range is clear' is the conclusion of the stage, thus the DQ was the right call.

[G-ManBart]

Interesting. I'm not arguing, but that would seem to contradict the fact that you can't load/reload and engage a target you realize that you've missed/forgotten after responding to the "if you are finished" by unloading and showing clear.

It would seem that either the COF is finished or it's not, and these two scenarios and the rules addressing them suggest that in one situation we consider the COF finished and in the other, it's not.

I don't really care, but it does seem that being consistent across different situations would be a good idea....if I were king I'd suggest to the Board that we pick one or the other...clearly, I'm not king

Can you start shooting the moment the course of fire has begun? It begins with "Make Ready," but most all of us accept that we do not have permission to commence firing until after receiving the start signal. In the same vein, the shooting stops before the course of fire ends; the course of fire does not terminate with the end of shooting, but only at the conclusion of several procedures that are designed to ensure competitor, range official and spectator safety.....

You are permitted to have a loaded gun after the "Make ready" command....COF has started. You are not allowed to have a loaded gun after responding to "if finished unload and show clear". It still seems that the COF should start when the gun is loaded, or permitted to be loaded, and end when you are ordered to unload the gun and comply with that order. To do it any other way has some element of a contradiction in it....not that it's a hugely glaring deal, but it's still a little inconsistent.

Regardless of all of that, it seems silly that someone can be DQ'd for dropping or fumbling a gun after it's been cleared, shown to be cleared and is the act of holstering. Why is that any more unsafe than it is if the guy holsters it, takes one step and then drops the gun? We're still dealing with the same probability that there could be a round in the gun that poses a danger...virtually as close to none as possible. There isn't any additional safety measure that happens betwen "holster" and "the range is clear" that would create additional safety, so we're penalizing someone for something that simply isn't dangerous. R,

[Gary Stevens]

A course of fire must start at some specified point and must end at some specified point. The clearer those points are, less open to individual interpretation if you will, the better it is. What we have now are two distinct points that everyone can understand when a course of fire starts and when it ends. No grey area.

An individual may resume shooting after the "if you are finished, unload and show clear" command. They may not resume shooting after the "if clear, hammer down and holster command".

As to the why issue, well simply it is because those are the rules and they work pretty well.

In 30 years of IPSC/USPSA shooting I have never been DQ'd. I would like to think that is because I obey the safety rules.

Now if you want to talk about procedurals, etc. that is a completely different issue of which I can only hang my head in shame

Gary

Edited December 11, 2008 by Gary Stevens

[kgunz11]

A course of fire must start at some specified point and must end at some specified point. The clearer those points are, less open to individual interpretation if you will, the better it is. What we have now are two distinct points that everyone can understand when a course of fire starts and when it ends. No grey area.

An individual may resume shooting after the "if you are finished, unload and show clear" command. They may not resume shooting after the "if clear, hammer down and holster command".

As to the why issue, well simply it is because those are the rules and they work pretty well.

In 30 years of IPSC/USPSA shooting I have never been DQ'd. I would like to think that is because I obey the safety rules.

Now if you want to talk about procedurals, etc. that is a completely different issue of which I can only hang my head in shame

Gary

So what is the end of the COF? "Slide down, hammer down, holster" or "range is clear"?

[JThompson]

A course of fire must start at some specified point and must end at some specified point. The clearer those points are, less open to individual interpretation if you will, the better it is. What we have now are two distinct points that everyone can understand when a course of fire starts and when it ends. No grey area.

An individual may resume shooting after the "if you are finished, unload and show clear" command. They may not resume shooting after the "if clear, hammer down and holster command".

As to the why issue, well simply it is because those are the rules and they work pretty well.

In 30 years of IPSC/USPSA shooting I have never been DQ'd. I would like to think that is because I obey the safety rules.

Now if you want to talk about procedurals, etc. that is a completely different issue of which I can only hang my head in shame

Gary

So what is the end of the COF? "Slide down, hammer down, holster" or "range is clear"?

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

No such command as "Slide forward"

Edited December 11, 2008 by JThompson

[kgunz11]

No such command as "Slide forward"

So the official commands are???

"Make Ready"

"Standby"

"If Finished Unload and Show Clear"

"If Clear, Hammer Down and Holster"

[JThompson]

No such command as "Slide forward"

So the official commands are???

"Make Ready"

"Are you ready

"Standby"

"If Finished Unload and Show Clear"

"If Clear, Hammer Down and Holster"

Range is Clear

Along with "Stop"and any warnings or commands needed for more than one string etc... less the better imho.

Edited December 11, 2008 by JThompson

[Aristotle]

Per USPSA Rules

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

Alan

bingo

[XRe]

#1 - go read the rules and get nice and cozy with them

#2 - go take a Level I RO course!

#3 - The Range Commands are:

Make Ready

Are You Ready?

Standby

(Start Signal) - usually a beep, but can be other things

(Stop) - if necessary

If You Are Finished, Unload and Show Clear

If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster

Range Is Clear

If you guys aren't giving "AYR?", you're giving someone a surefire means to an arbitration.... And, if you aren't using those commands, you're inviting issues if you ever come across a shoot who doesn't fully understand local english...

[38superman]

I think I'm in a pretty good position to answer this.

During the 2005 Nationals I finished a stage and holstered my gun.

It was a speed holster and apparently the gun didn't seat properly.

The instant I took my hand off of the gun it tumbled onto the ground.

The R.O. wanted to D.Q. me.

He took the position that the course was not complete because he had not called "Range is Clear" yet.

The matter was referred to the Range Master (Amidon) and it was his opinion that once the gun was placed in the holster, it was no different than dropping a gun anywhere else on the range.

I was not DQ'd and allowed to continue the match.

As we all know dropping a gun is not a D.Q. offense as long as you don't pick it up.

It requires an R.O. to supervise.

This incedent touched off a fire storm of controversy among the powers that be, regarding when a course of fire actually ends.

I'm told that rules were being considered or amended to deal with this.

I did not know any of this had happened behind the scenes until I was taking my Level I R.O. class.

The instructor mentioned the incedent and when he found out he was talking about me said "Oh, so you're the one that's responsible for all this".

I'm not sure how it was resolved at the NROI but I can tell you for certain that Amidon ruled in my favor.

I suppose that the specifics of what happened will make all the difference.

If you drop the gun before it actually goes into the holster, that's a different matter.

Tony

Edited December 11, 2008 by 38superman

[Seth]

Has anyone email Mr. Amidon to get the final word? I'd be curious, especially based on Tony's post to see what he thinks.

S.

[mactiger]

That particular rule change was valid for the last set of rules, but no longer applies. Now, the course of fire is over when the RO calls "Range is Clear". If you drop your gun prior to that, it's a DQ. If you drop your gun after that statement, but don't pick it up, then it's not a DQ. As Gary stated, a course has to begin and end somewhere. Under the previous rule, the course of fire was considered "ended" when the competitor had holstered his gun and removed his hand from it. Because this can be a very subjective call, the rule was changed to the unambiguous "Range is Clear" to signify the end of the course of fire.

There is no need to email John Amidon--the rule is quite clear. Tony's comments stem from an incident in 2005--3 years and at least one rule book ago. Dropping your gun during a course of fire (i.e. between the "Make Ready" command and the "Range is Clear" command) is always a DQ offense--no exceptions, no matter what state the gun is in.

And, a big +1 to Dave Re's comments. Knowing the rules helps you become a better, safer competitor. Taking a level one seminar will get you familiar with most of the major rules--there isn't a better way to get friendly with the rule book.

Troy

Edited December 11, 2008 by mactiger

[Seth]

Even better! Instant gratification. Thanks. Now I know to be DARN sure its not coming loose after HDAH.

[XRe]

Has anyone email Mr. Amidon to get the final word? I'd be curious, especially based on Tony's post to see what he thinks.

It should be noted that, while John can offer an opinion (albeit an informed one), "final word" is an official ruling by NROI which has been approved by the BoD. John's opinions are not chapter and verse, and can be overturned by the BoD (though, IME, this is relatively rare).

[racerba]

.

Edited December 11, 2008 by racerba

[jeanpilot]

That particular rule change was valid for the last set of rules, but no longer applies. Now, the course of fire is over when the RO calls "Range is Clear". If you drop your gun prior to that, it's a DQ. If you drop your gun after that statement, but don't pick it up, then it's not a DQ. As Gary stated, a course has to begin and end somewhere. Under the previous rule, the course of fire was considered "ended" when the competitor had holstered his gun and removed his hand from it. Because this can be a very subjective call, the rule was changed to the unambiguous "Range is Clear" to signify the end of the course of fire.

There is no need to email John Amidon--the rule is quite clear. Tony's comments stem from an incident in 2005--3 years and at least one rule book ago. Dropping your gun during a course of fire (i.e. between the "Make Ready" command and the "Range is Clear" command) is always a DQ offense--no exceptions, no matter what state the gun is in.

And, a big +1 to Dave Re's comments. Knowing the rules helps you become a better, safer competitor. Taking a level one seminar will get you familiar with most of the major rules--there isn't a better way to get friendly with the rule book.

Troy

Almost agreed...

IPSC Rule 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

Definately DQ!

[SteveZ]

Almost agreed...

IPSC Rule 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

Definately DQ!

Except for one point....here in the US, we don't use the IPSC rulebook, we use the USPSA rulebook. The COF ends (in the USPSA version) when the Range Is Clear command is given...not when the competitors hands are clear of the holstered gun. It used to be that way but not anymore.

[38superman]

That particular rule change was valid for the last set of rules, but no longer applies. Now, the course of fire is over when the RO calls "Range is Clear". If you drop your gun prior to that, it's a DQ. If you drop your gun after that statement, but don't pick it up, then it's not a DQ. As Gary stated, a course has to begin and end somewhere. Under the previous rule, the course of fire was considered "ended" when the competitor had holstered his gun and removed his hand from it. Because this can be a very subjective call, the rule was changed to the unambiguous "Range is Clear" to signify the end of the course of fire.

There is no need to email John Amidon--the rule is quite clear. Tony's comments stem from an incident in 2005--3 years and at least one rule book ago. Dropping your gun during a course of fire (i.e. between the "Make Ready" command and the "Range is Clear" command) is always a DQ offense--no exceptions, no matter what state the gun is in.

And, a big +1 to Dave Re's comments. Knowing the rules helps you become a better, safer competitor. Taking a level one seminar will get you familiar with most of the major rules--there isn't a better way to get friendly with the rule book.

Troy

Almost agreed...

IPSC Rule 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

Definately DQ!

I believe that was the basis of the argument at the time.

The instant I took my hand off the gun the course of fire was over.

"Range is Clear" does not end the course.

It is a notification that the course has ended and it is safe to go down range.

I have no idea how that played out later and I do not subcribe to either side of the debate.

As Troy stated, the rules may now be different.

I'm just glad I didn't get sent packing.

I've never DQ'd but that's about as close as I want to come.

The best idea is don't drop your gun.

Tony

Edited December 11, 2008 by 38superman