Shooting box

[Collecting A's]

When coming into a shooting box can you take a shot before a foot has landed in the box but after your foot has come off the ground outside the box?

[Singlestack]

Yes as long as one foot is on the ground in the box.

[norbs007]

So you're asking while airborne? Like SS said, as soon as a foot is on the ground inside the box.

[Flexmoney]

That might also depend on how the procedure is written?

[Collecting A's]

The stage description is: shoot them as you see them from with the shooting areas.

There are 2 shooting areas( A and B ).

So, you do have to have at least one foot down inside the shooting area?

[Joe4d]

unless specified dont barriers go all the way up and all the way down ? I'd say the lines of the box go up to infinity so I assume as long as you were inside the perimeter of the box regardless of how high you are in the box. The Box is defined with 2 dimensional lines. We are 3 dimensional beings there fore we must extrapolate the 2 dimensional box skyward. So Remo Williams would be in like Flynn.

[mactiger]

So you're asking while airborne? Like SS said, as soon as a foot is on the ground inside the box.

Y'all sure about that?

Troy

[sci]

a box is just fault lines if you are not touching outside the fault lines you should be good to go

Steve

[ima45dv8]

unless specified dont barriers go all the way up and all the way down ? I'd say the lines of the box go up to infinity so I assume as long as you were inside the perimeter of the box regardless of how high you are in the box. The Box is defined with 2 dimensional lines. We are 3 dimensional beings there fore we must extrapolate the 2 dimensional box skyward. So Remo Williams would be in like Flynn.

You may have been thinking of this:

2.2.3.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such

barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be

considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.

As for Fault Lines:

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden

boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in

place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors.

For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch

material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces,

such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or

similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the

surface is recommended.

[ima45dv8]

So you're asking while airborne? Like SS said, as soon as a foot is on the ground inside the box.

Y'all sure about that?

Troy

DELETED.

I wasn't thinking outside of the box.

Or maybe I was thinking, "outside" of the box.

Now I'm confused.

[Scott R]

It would seem that airborn is good to go....

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

[LPatterson]

When coming into a shooting box can you take a shot before a foot has landed in the box but after your foot has come off the ground outside the box?

If the foot is not on the ground inside the box then you are not yet in the box but somewhere in space. Sounds like a leap of faith to me. If the question were do both feet have to be in the box then the answer is no as long as the trail foot is off the ground. Get the Double Alpha 3GM dvd for a better demonstration.

[Nik Habicht]

When coming into a shooting box can you take a shot before a foot has landed in the box but after your foot has come off the ground outside the box?

Probably comes down to how specifically the stage description is written.....

Example: Start position: Standing with both feet outside of FFZ A and FFZ B, wrists above respective shoulders, gun loaded and holstered.

Stage procedure: On start signal enter FFZ A or FFZ B with both feet, then engage only 4 pieces of steel and as many paper targets as desired from the entered FFZ only, move to the other FFZ, and after entering with both feet, engage only 4 pieces of steel and as many paper targets as desired from the other FFZ.

Now, if it's not that specific --- then you can hang your hat on the rule book, and its stipulation that if you're not touching outside then you're in.....

[lcs]

The stage description is: shoot them as you see them from with the shooting areas.

There are 2 shooting areas( A and B ).

So, you do have to have at least one foot down inside the shooting area?

The way you have described the WSB, as long as your foot/feet is/are NOT touching the ground outside the shooting area/s (A& you are legal. I'll go a step farther.

Shooter runs to end of shooting area (long shooting box ) and starts to fall sideways shooting around barrier and falls sideways. Two shots fired while most of body was in the air but not touching the ground outside the box. Shooter falls outside fault line after completing the shots(feet were in shooting area, but not touching). Shots counted without procedural (Area 5 this year).

edited for "fat finger" typing

Edited December 6, 2008 by FullRace

[Barrettone]

I would agree that it would depend on how the WSB was written. HOWEVER, it seems to me, that the shooter would need to ESTABLISH themselves in the designated shooting area BEFORE it could be considered that they were actually present in the desired shooting location as described by Collecting A's description of the COF as written. I would contend that for one to be shooting from a designated area, that they would need to be first established there before they could squeeze off a shot without getting a procedural. Remember, we let people go flying out of the shooting area and squeeze shots off while in mid-air (as FullRace stated above), BUT the caveate is that they were PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED in that shooting area. Now, if you are in "no-mans-land", then I would contend that you were not established in the prescribed shooting area, and it is no different than if you were still on the ground outside the shooting area(s). You simply can't have it both ways, as if we are going to consider the competitor as "in the shooting area" while in mid-air going INTO the box, then they are "out-of-bounds" if they are in mid-air going out of the shooting area. It is one of those "I want my cake and eat it too" deals. I say you are OK if you are on your way OUT of the area, or have at least one foot down. If you are on your way IN...no-go. Has anybody contacted the FAA to get a ruling? Does the competitor need a flight plan? Quote the rule...quote the rule.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Barrettone

[John Baier]

I would agree that it would depend on how the WSB was written. HOWEVER, it seems to me, that the shooter would need to ESTABLISH themselves in the designated shooting area BEFORE it could be considered that they were actually present in the desired shooting location as described by Collecting A's description of the COF as written. I would contend that for one to be shooting from a designated area, that they would need to be first established there before they could squeeze off a shot without getting a procedural. Remember, we let people go flying out of the shooting area and squeeze shots off while in mid-air (as FullRace stated above), BUT the caveate is that they were PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED in that shooting area. Now, if you are in "no-mans-land", then I would contend that you were not established in the prescribed shooting area, and it is no different than if you were still on the ground outside the shooting area(s). You simply can't have it both ways, as if we are going to consider the competitor as "in the shooting area" while in mid-air going INTO the box, then they are "out-of-bounds" if they are in mid-air going out of the shooting area. It is one of those "I want my cake and eat it too" deals. I say you are OK if you are on your way OUT of the area, or have at least one foot down. If you are on your way IN...no-go. Has anybody contacted the FAA to get a ruling? Does the competitor need a flight plan? Quote the rule...quote the rule.

Try this one on for size:

3.2.6 In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, but is not specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitor’s score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is “forbidden”. (See Rule 2.3, including subsections)

That why we get paid the big bucks

[VegasOPM]

I'm almost glad that I'm not good enough to worry about whether to break the shot in mid air or the millisecond after my foot hits the gravel.

[Micah]

To the OP: Is there a specific circumstance that precipitated this question? I have never done, not witnessed anyone shooting while entering a box, yet did not have a foot either outside of the box or inside of the box.

[lcs]

To the OP: Is there a specific circumstance that precipitated this question? I have never done, not witnessed anyone shooting while entering a box, yet did not have a foot either outside of the box or inside of the box.

You've never watched Super V (Bob Vogel) have you?

[Collecting A's]

Edit: repeat info.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Collecting A's

[Flexmoney]

10.2.1 defines Faulting in a specific manner... as touching outside the shooting area. So, what we've heard here is not a faulting issue.

Therefore, to award a penalty, we'd need to have a procedure...written in the stage briefing...that was violated:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range

Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number

of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s

score sheet.

[Micah]

You've never watched Super V (Bob Vogel) have you?

I have never seen anyone shoot while in the air at a match.

[Barrettone]

I have done it on the way OUT OF A BOX...but NEVER on the way INTO a box!!! The stage I was shooting basically had 4 shooting locations (going left to right) with 3 targets at the 1st shooting location, 1 target down a hallway at the 2nd location (that you had to advance down, and then retreat uprange to get to the next position), 3 targets at the 3rd location, and then one that was on the side berm at the final location. Thing was, that during the walkthrough, I noticed that you could see that hallway target from the last location if you were standing just 2 feet out of the shooting area. I decided to shoot it left to right, but did not go down the hallway and then back up, but rather, after I shot the last target on the move from the 3rd to the fourth location (in the sideberm), I kept my momemtum going, and then jumped out of the box, and fired 3 quick shots in mid-air and to my left. I ended up with a Charlie, Delta, but was 3 seconds faster than the next-closest time, as I eliminated that hallway shooting location. It is a little disturbing when a 300 pound+ guy beats out a slim and fit A-class guy...he-he.

As a side note though, I do not see any advantage to do so when going INTO a box.

[boz1911]

I have done it on the way OUT OF A BOX...but NEVER on the way INTO a box!!! The stage I was shooting basically had 4 shooting locations (going left to right) with 3 targets at the 1st shooting location, 1 target down a hallway at the 2nd location (that you had to advance down, and then retreat uprange to get to the next position), 3 targets at the 3rd location, and then one that was on the side berm at the final location. Thing was, that during the walkthrough, I noticed that you could see that hallway target from the last location if you were standing just 2 feet out of the shooting area. I decided to shoot it left to right, but did not go down the hallway and then back up, but rather, after I shot the last target on the move from the 3rd to the fourth location (in the sideberm), I kept my momemtum going, and then jumped out of the box, and fired 3 quick shots in mid-air and to my left. I ended up with a Charlie, Delta, but was 3 seconds faster than the next-closest time, as I eliminated that hallway shooting location. It is a little disturbing when a 300 pound+ guy beats out a slim and fit A-class guy...he-he.

As a side note though, I do not see any advantage to do so when going INTO a box.

I don't knowen Sako, imaginening you floating through the air like a ballerina is a little hard to beleive

Edited December 9, 2008 by boz1911

[Barrettone]

I don't knowen Sako, imaginening you floating through the air like a ballerina is a little hard to beleive

You'd be surprised how quick this big fella is, and how fast I'll go airborn if there is a twinkie suspended at that last shooting location! Hell...I had it ate BEFORE I hit the ground! (5.2 on the Richter scale)

Edited December 9, 2008 by Barrettone